Rugby

Probably the wrong denomination of the sport(s) for on here, but Rob Burrow, former Leeds and England half-back, diagnosed with MND. Quality player, oft overlooked due to his lack of size.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/50854089

An The Beast has been signed to a team in Washington.

Saracens relegation confirmed.

Fuxake Leicester off the hook. They earned their relegation by merit.

Can't argue with that, although there's still a long way to go in the season but I expect their recent upturn if you can even call it that will end once the six nations begins. It'll just be a stay of execution though, the club needs complete reform from top to bottom. Nothing will be done though as the club is still up for sale.

Rosslyn Park v Sale yesterday, saw about 10 minutes of the match as my daughter just wanted to kick a football about (and, to be fair, so did I as I've been off football since August with a fucked ankle). Could be Rosslyn Park vs Sarries next season.

But I'll get to watch some actual Rugby as a nephew has been selected for the Lambs against Irish Exiles in Ealing this afternoon.

Lambs against Irish Exiles

Awesome game (if you ignore the Exiles no. 9 breaking his leg in the first few minutes, GWS). The Lambs have an unwritten rule not to kick during open play (try that Faf de Klerk) and being an entirely scratch side made for a very exciting game. Some great talents on show on both sides.

I watched Quins V Cermont yesterday on telly, what a cracker that was right from the word go. Added bonus of Marler on ref mic too.

Marler really enjoyed himself, and Dombrandt, wow, could be one hell of an 8.

If you want to watch at home, what's the best way to watch rugby at this level?

Channel 4, they show a game most rounds of the cup.

So...have I got this right?

• Sarries relegated at end of season (YES)
  
• No other team can be relegated this season?
  
• Sarries cannot be promoted in 2020/21 season (bit confused as read something about compliance for two seasons however there is no salary cap below the Premiership)?
  
• Any Saracens players that play outside of England (and that includes the Pro14 were an application to be made to join the 'Celtic' League by Sarries, or were current Sarries players to join Pro14 sides) cannot represent England.
  

Don’t know about any of that but it’s unlikely that any of the big names will be able to transfer to English prem clubs unless they have any of their own big money players leaving out-of-contract as they wouldn’t fit them unde their salary cap, and if the Sarries internationals are only facing league one opposition they’re unlikely to get selected by England.

I can't see any of the big Sarries names staying (though if they did, they might still be selected for England if it was 'just a year' in the championship. I can't see them taking a massive pay cut is the bigger issue and even if the salaries remained the same (there's no salary cap outside prem) they'd be faced with the limitations of the salary cap when promoted. You're right; most teams will have next year's roster filled and won't have 750k for Farrell etc so 'my guess' is the star players will head to France/Japan/Super Rugby (maybe on loan) and forego England honours but still be eligible for the Lions.

In that case, England lose, from their likely (near) starting XV. I mean I think their are replacements for Kruis, B Vunipola and Daly but Mako and Itoje are a huge potential loss.

Just a thought - I wonder if Sarries would loan those players to Premiership clubs (and pay a significant part of their salary as it's unlikely those squads would have much left), possible as there's no salary cap, and gain promotion with their excellent academy products/non top international players
Daly
Vunipola
Vunipola
George
Kruis
Itoje
Farrell

My understanding:

• Yes
  
• Yes (as in, they will be the only team relegated)
  
• I read that they can be promoted, but a condition of this relegation is that any attempt to come up would be subject to a full open-books financial review indicating cap compliance.
  
• As it stands, yes, but there's the not-yet-used 'exceptional circumstances' lacuna in that law around foreign-based player selection and if this isn't exceptional circs I don't really know what is. My guess is a surprising number of the biggest players will take a pay cut and stay for a year (unless there is a restriction upon immediate promotion), a number more will take loan moves (both within the prem and abroad if they get the nod that exceptional circumstances can be invoked) and a small number of players will actually be sold - looks like Kruis is going, imagine some of the old guard (Wigglesworth, Goode, Bosch etc) go to France/Japan for final paycheck...
  
  

What is interesting, and I haven't read much more about this, is the Exeter owner continuing to be very forthright that no-one should feel any sympathy for them - apparently they've accepted this relegation rather than allow a full forensic accounting of their books and Wray's finances. I'm not entirely sure what his insinuation is, as they've copped for salary cap breaches and 'creative accounting' but I guess this may have been even more egregious than currently portrayed. Or maybe they just didn't want to drag it out any more...

Agree but I wonder if it was actually a choice between a) relegation
And b) open books and relegation

Also interesting not to see any (to my mind) criticism of the players who were clearly 'in on it' and even if it's not deemed appropriate to criticise the players, I wonder if their association and fact they benefited by going along with it will make them persona non Grata (temporarily at least) within England rugby

Aye, they've been fined £5m and now guaranteed relegation, I'm not sure what additional threat could be used to enforce open books. They may as well swallow it all and go down with as little additional fuss as possible...

This is a big question. I'm not sure about 'clearly in on it' - it doesn't sound like they were extravagantly over the cap (i.e. you read numbers like £500k or so, which is only 1/14 of the cap) so they might have assumed they were close but not over. The big question - and the massive frustration about the current non-publication of the report into this - is how the 'co-investments' worked with the chairman and what the players were told about these. If they were assured that this creative accounting was outwith the salary cap then it may be reasonable that the players are, at worst, guilty of a selective deafness to the issue and shouldn't be burnt at the stake. I mean, they must have looked around their changing room and wondered how they had SUCH a stronger squad than everyone else, but then when such a high proportion came through their development routes maybe that's not such a hard story to sell yourself.

Whilst it doesn't justify their 'cheating', lots of rumours going around now that other clubs will currently be sitting very uncomfortably re their own salary cap compliance and creative accounting...

Agree re: other clubs

I've heard Farrell on 750k and if on that basis you may say Maro, BV, MV, DALY, WILLIAMS, GEORGE and KRUIS AVE 500k you're that leaves only about 2.8m for another 25 players including other British lions and established international players. Of course, we don't know exact figures so it's all its/buts/maybes but it's more about the players surely wondering why 'this' number is your salary and 'this' is a company we've set up (which is just a name MANUPROP, WIGGY9 etc etc) that you're now the owner of and will have 200k deposited into it every year - appreciate that agents/advisors surely have a part to play also.

I think it is important to note that the companies being set up - as far as I understand them - are generally a bit more than 'just a name', I think they are largely genuine investments and active operations. Certainly Wolfpack Lager, which is one of the early Wray-invested operations is doing well and I often drink their offerings!

This is where we're into such a grey area - without the report we really have no idea. There's clearly a big difference between shell companies into which Wray deposits money with no attempt to set up or run a company and genuine investment opportunities which Wray is a joint investor and possibly even retains an interest in. The former feels like a flagrant breach of the cap and you would feel this reflects upon the players who must have understood that this was dodgy. The latter feels very different and you could understand that the players may have been sold it in such a way that it wouldn't necessary raise red-flags for them. Until we get that report there's too much speculation and too little understanding...

Of course, we don't know exact figures so it's all its/buts/maybes but it's more about the players surely wondering why 'this' number is your salary and 'this' is a company we've set up (which is just a name MANUPROP, WIGGY9 etc etc) that you're now the owner of and will have 200k deposited into it every year - appreciate that agents/advisors surely have a part to play also.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if bigger players like Farrell didn't already have companies set up which had image rights paid into them as a more tax efficient way of being paid. This is generally what happens with footballers (some transactions being more dubious than others).

Agreed - though I suppose I air on the side of cynicism given that the findings seem to suggest these aren't legit companies (purely a way to cheat the salary cap) else it's plausible to think, if these were legitimate investments/companies, Saracens may not have been guilty of breaching the salary cap. Anyway, as you say we won't know until the time it all 'comes out' however it is fun to speculate in the meantime.
FWIW my brother (a big Sarries fan) feels that it's a travesty of justice and poor old Sarries and my favourite "well, let's be honest, this isn't exactly good for English rugby" ) referring to the punishment rather than the salary cap breaches that led to it! I wonder is this 'poor Sarries, we're being made a scapegoat' 'no one likes us we don't care' attitude the general consensus among Sarries fans?

We have no idea what the findings suggest as nothing has been released! We know Sarries have accepted they were over the actual cap, but beyond that and the reality around these investment companies it is pure speculation...

I have some sympathy - I don't think the academy credits properly reflect the investment they have made and the amount of players they lose to internationals. But everyone else has to live by that so they shouldn't have assumed they didn't.

They have a big chip on their shoulders about their position outside 'the establishment' and I think a lot of fans (and board members) are quite loudly wondering at the moment about Bath/Quins' finances and general compliance. Potentially quite telling you don't hear much from either of their ownerships. Unlike Exeter, who have every reason to feel outrageously aggrieved and are doing well to not throw all their toys out of the pram...