Pre 1950s rides of LFGSS: old bikes, vintage rats, classic lightweights

A unrestored '51 Holdsworth Cyclone Delux and a '49 Claud Butler Super Velo in Canterbury. Same seller has a few interesting parts for sale too.

Thanks @falconvitesse yeah it's around 24" which is my size.
There'll inevitably be some faffing about with stem length.
I'm pretty sure it's built for 27" wheels - I just can't get a front wheel in to measure the brake drop accurately. Guess you can work it out by measuring from the hole in fork to the axle but haven't tried before.
I had a Bates BAR with 27" wheels a few years back and it was a PITA having different tyre and tubes sizes from my other bikes and less choice, but I'll do it if that's what works best.

If this frame is Charlie McCoy's track frame you can be pretty well certain it was built for sprints, not 27's.

Gillot's would have been embarrassed if a rider of his class were seen at the track on a gappy frame with their name on it! Also, if you look at the pics of his geared TT bikes you will notice they have short reach brakes, implying he was a man who liked close clearances.

Thanks @clubman
I did speak to Charly a couple of years back on the phone. He said he'd got the Gillott when he was pretty young and - from memory - he said he'd bought it off a clubmate.
I think his first sponsor was Soens.
I'll try and dig out my notes from what he said.

So if he bought it second hand as a beginner it could possibly be a 27" wheel frame.

There certainly were frames which were 'dual purpose' as winter bikes (I note yours has mudguard eyes, although even Anquetil's bike had them, back then) and track/ tt machines in the summer.

It's not easy now to understand just how short money was in the fifties.

Have dug out my notes.
Charly said he bought the Gillott off another rider who was relocating to NZ around 1955 when Charly was 17yrs old.
Was originally dark brown with white lettering.
Was used on the track at Liverpool when was with Melling Wheelers in Bootle track league.
Also used for time trials. Brake only installed when on road for time trials.
Stopped using because Harry Quinn made him a chrome track bike for use at the Rome Games.
When he returned Eddie Soens told him only to ride his bikes and returned the Quinn.
Soens made him a time trial bike on which he set the 55:1 record in 1961.
Had five sprockets at the back.
Eddie said it should have been sub 55 as the course was 45m longer than should have been but stewards rejected that.

Melling Wheelers

Excellent. Sadly defunct as a club, but I suppose they live on in our own WillMelling.

Long shot I know but I'm looking for a Simplex derailleur hangar. See picture or the whole dropout circa 1950s.

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Freecycling a couple of Bottom Brackets and assorted lampbrackets/holders
1) TDC square taper BB has markings "3 SS" "68 -E" on the spindle
2) TDC cottered (1x cup is TDC 1x cup is campag) markings says "No9"
3) lamp fork brackets with 1x bolt and spacer most have some rust
Collection from Gray's Inn Rd near Condor or happy to post at cost

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moar

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I need a little help here please. I'd love to buy this frame, but the forks just don't look right to me. The gaps where the fork ends attach to the legs are just not right, they remind me of a low budget Peugeot !? Also, there is no frame number on the left rear dropout.

The offending joint

The ad is here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Carlton-bike-frame/163885794142?hash=item26285ac35e:g:yLYAAOSwjvVdhb4p

Does anyone know much about this model ?
Thanks

The fork details suggest the 1950s such as fork crown detailing and the lamp bracket which I'm sure was way out of touch in the 1960's.
The front dropouts are forged I'm not sure what they are but they look weird on those forks.
I'm not sure if the critireum was build with 531 Tubing? But the lug works looks very plain and clunky. The rear dropouts are flat plate again not a detail you would expect on a mid sixties road bike unless it was build by Raleigh.
Maybe you could ask for a picture with the bike built up with 700c wheels, to give you an idea of the geometry.
To sum up then. Don't buy it. For that sort of money I'm sure you could buy a complete Carlton.

Nice finishing, shame about the metalwork!

Falconvitesse is right - this Carlton looks like a cheap Raleigh.

Looks like a nicely resprayed Carlton Cobra to me. https://images.app.goo.gl/d8sPuxNhYeiCEtrL7

Interesting Carpenter here

Yes, I was think that could be the trick !
But the lugs on a Cobra (all that I've seen so far) are not the same as this frame.

Seems odd that it’s completely chromed though, that’s not a cheap thing to do. It has what look like the usual Carlton wrapover seat stays. Decals look like pukka waterslides.

Indeed true and strange but there is no doubting the fact that the forks are not a match and for that reason it's still a no from me. I have had experience of a frame without the matching forks and it's frustrating having that niggling feeling in the back of your mind.

Looks like my Cobra underneath....

https://www.cyclechat.net/attachments/5x3eaq-jpg-jpg.470563/

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F333222903223
Hmm....Looks like I was wrong!
another one here but half the price

All the same, you were right when you said it wasn't worth the asking price.

I notice that the two frames are only similar to each other (cheap plate ends, heavy tubing etc) but different lugs finish and brazings; I suspect the 'Criterium' transfers were used pretty much at random - and you certainly wouldn't want to ride a crit. on one of these!

To give credit where it's due, the elaborate finish on the first of these would be worthy of a much better frame and it's survivied about half a century without tarnishing - remarkable, but pointless.

Just a quick snippet of the programmes, articles and photos I picked up when I got hold of my '48 Sibbit. Believed to have come from Jack's niece Dorothy and her Father Stanley.

The race programmes are a great insight, with adverts from local (Manchester) builders, Berry, Sibbit, Denison, Stenton, as well as national & other adverts from Carlton, Soens, adverts for bread and breweries etc.
Many famous names in the entries for races, with some entries filled in. If you know of a local cycling hero from this era, chances are, they are in these.
Pictures from Fallowfield track show Reg Harris and others of the era (Tommy Godwin?)

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Stupid question: diregarding components, how different is an old frame from a not-so-old frame? Does a Reynolds 531 from 1965 ride completely different from a Reynolds 531 from 2005?

I'm seriously considering buying a proper old frame, say 1960s, re-space dropouts, add brake mounts for 27.5 and go from there. What, if anything, would stop it from being a (lighter) Surly?

Main thing is geometry and wheels , older bikes have slacker angles and a longer wheelbase which makes it feel different. When I switched from HP wheels to sprints and tubs it went a bit easier.

Most of my bikes are 70's and feel much the same to ride as my Basso Reef.

Old bikes don't necessarily have slack geometry. My 1938 Hetchins (Reynolds 531 as it happens, rides pretty nicely) has fairly modern angles as these things go, you just have to find the right frame.

This memorabilia is always fascinating, especially when you already know something about the people involved.

Which year is that copy of Miroir Sprint ? I'm curious about which year they considered him the favourite at the start.