An awkward situation with a frame builder

TBF most frame builders I have met are weirdos.

I hate the internet because it makes it encourages everyone to not take their time and subsequently gloss over fine distinctions, no-one more so than myself.

I do not not think ripping anyone off for money is legitimate. Nothing I've said should be supportive of that. Again if the builder is a liar then he needs to give the money back and get in the bin.

I am admittedly - in a slightly off-topic way and probably legitimately hijacking the post - trying to make a general point about customer expectations. Maybe here isn't the place and I've sort of already attempted to put my point across. But for clarity, in this specific situation sounds like the OP got done. There is a larger point to be made about money-ed customers pushing their financial entitlement to unreasonable limits, but if it comes up again I'll take it elsewhere.

Good luck to the OP to on getting a just resolution.

Yeah I'd imagine most frame builders are terrible at explaining their process and most of their clients have no clue as to how to work with them, because they are coming from an environment where they rock up to Evans or whatever, hand over some money and walk off with a nicely finished although vanilla product.

So a hand built frame should be roughly finished like an artisan sourdough loaf?

Pretty sure one of the big US framebuilders published an article along the lines of "you wouldn't go to a restaurant with a list for the chef of things you want to eat and how you want them prepared, so why do people do people always do it with custom frame builders?"

Thinking like that is how you go out of business, unless you are Pegoretti (RIP).

I think his specific gripe was with people who have never built a bike frame giving lists of the tubes they wanted used

You go custom when you know what you want and can't get it off the shelf with all the details you want.
It's basically saville row.
Service is part of the package and the process of being part of the design and build is too...ultimately the customer is right (because he/she signs the cheque) but helpful advice is much welcome.

Let me give a bit more further info as to what's been happening so this might help to make it a fairer situaion.

I was fairly clear at the beginning of the process what type of frame I want and a lot of decisions were made based on my wishes and their recommendation on what's practical.

I'd say about 80% of the decisions have remained unchanged since day 1, there were some minor but not insignificant things like where should the cables go to and from internally, what stem to use because that would afect the headtube length, should the shape of the fork tubes ber ound or oval etc etc weren't made till much later, but I was following the frame builder's recommendation on what they could do and coudn't do and whats' strong enough and what's not. I don't remember rejecting any of their recommendation because I am fully aware of the fact that I am buying their craftmanship, creativity and their expertise.

I have never given them a list of technical details on how to build the frame; there had been some going back and forth for a few months with suggestions of changes that I didn't think would affect the actual building / welding of th frame.

I did ask I think about this time last year that if it would be possible to change the frame from a normal seat tube to a IPS, but only if they haven't started making the frame yet. if they had then I would have been happy with the original plan. I made that point very clear.

As far as tubing was concerned, all I ever said was becasue this might well be a once in a lifetime opportunity for me to have a custom frame made and the cost difference between mid range and high end tubing isn't that much, go for the best possible tubing. I had no influence on what exaclty type of brand of tubing should be used.

I will admit to dithering a fair bit of the graphic design part, as being someone who works in the creative industry, for me, sometime a piece of work is only finished when there is a deadline, one can always edit and tweaking their design forever... so I will put my hands up to say, I did do a bit of that. However, as someone who has no knowladge of the frame making process, I was under the impression that the graphic is only applied after the frame is completed, so I did take my time on the design part because everytime I asked, I was told soon but a while yet, that gve me the indication that I could still edit and change my design and maybe I should have drawa a firmer line on that and say I want to see the frame by (date).

I will also put my hands up to say that the graphic design I have made is rather complicated and it will be a very time consuming process and some parts of it might not even be easily achieved by someone who isn't an experienced finisher, but is this my responsibility or the frame builder's?

Saying all that, I appreciate everybody has a life so whilst the progress of my frame has been the number 1 talking point in a lot of pub chats over the last 2 years. I was really reluctant to keep emailing the frame builder to ask for progress because nobody likes additional admins and maybe that has given them the impression that I am cool with having the frame done whenever.

Finally, someone told this frame builder about this thread and they have emailed me first thing today offering to give me a definitive completion date by tomorrow or a refund.

So I will have to sleep on it to decide what option is the better one...

I feel like because someone has snitched, my relationship with them has now changed for the worse, I don't know if it would be a good idea to see this project till the end with the possiblity that an further deadline might be missed.

My head is telling me to get the refund and go elsewhere, but my heart is telling me to give them 1 last chance partly because I am under the impresison that they have already machined the parts that probably can't be used on someone else that easily, although this really isn't my problem. But largely because I have been waiting for so long now that I really really want my custome bike. going to someone else will mean I probably wouldn't get anything this year.

God this is tedious.

If you have time you should go and see said feamebuilder in person.

Personally I think you'd be a massive cunt to ask for a refund after this amount of time.

New phone, who dis?

Even if "this amount of time" has only passed because of delays at their end?

Applying this logic they could take years more and client would still be out of pocket. Obviously that wouldn't be ok.

Set them a deadline that you need it by, and what it is you expect, if they can't meet it (and assuming it was a reasonable one) then say you'll need your money back. Not reasonable for them to hang on to it indefinitely, but also harsh to just pull the plug without warning.

You go custom when you know what you want and can't get it off the shelf with all the details you want

I agree in that the thing you want may be "a fast road bike that can also take mudguard and internal dynamo routing". Rather than "I must own a bike with a Spirit downtube and Max top tube". If you're doing the latter then you're doing it wrong.

If you can I vote to still get the frame. I've heard other people complain about having a sour relationship with the framebuilder for whatever reason and it tainted their love of the finished product, which I think is bullshit, it's an object.

For the tailor to cut your suit they need to have the final brief locked down- at what point was the design of the frame confirmed and locked as a single, fully scoped and agreed thing?

I often get the impression that the brief clients give to frame builders would be the equivalent of going to a tailor and demanding a formal suit, but unstructured, for a warm climate but made of 12 oz wool. Give me all the cycling buzzwords in one package, short wheelbase, s&s couplers, all day comfort, obscure brakes, fixeh, with gears, lightweight but with mudguards and a kickstand, and i'd like a carbon drive side chain stay but metal on the nds, stainless head tube and gas pipe top tube.

👆🏽all of this is very much possible as I have proven with my track record

And I want it last week, ps sick candy fade, with flip paint from top to bottom. But can it be done in powder coat as it’s tougher.

Ta

and mates rates as we both post on the same forum, it’ll be on prolly fo sho

Frame builder, yep, of course that'll be fine, 90% cash up front, can you collect it next Monday.

Six months later, "sorry, the paint won't bond with the stainless head tube, the bike needs to be rebuilt. I'll do it at my own cost asap."

12 months later "frame was in the post last week"

18 months later an email from the courier company "we will be collecting your frame from nob jacksoff next week and deliver it on the bank holiday monday"

customer cancels bank holiday plans, waits in all day an nothing arrives. next day calls courier pretending to be frame builder to discover the courier went to collect the frame but no one was in...

wrong thread

Have they ever used Brexit as an excuse?

The psychology of going custom

https://youtu.be/eueFItCd2ng

I thought it was more to do with the geo? "I need 72.5mm BB drop"
Either way I can understand his frustration. But to go back on topic it's the builder's job to give the client a deadline when the design is finalised and cannot be amended anymore. That would require a time frame to start with though...
I think some frame builders would be better off working for other people who can handle the business side of things.

I think some frame builders would be better off working for other people who can handle the business side of things.

Replace ‘some frame builders’ with ‘every craftsperson’ imho. Economics usually don’t allow, sadly.

If you look at Bob Jackson or other builder's websites though they have a simple price list of tubes, finishes, options and addons, as well as indicative times. I think this is a bare minimum for managing expectations...

To be sitting two years down the line with a largely unbuilt frame and not even knowing what you're getting charged is strange to me and speaks of someone who is unable to do the bare minimum of either aspect of running a business in terms of customer service and delivery of a product.

If it were me I'd gladly take the refund and get Enigma on the phone.