EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

I understand it from your rather extreme example, but in a real world context people who shout whataboutery tend go there when they look to have lost the argument.

Are you going to shout whataboutery now?

when I’ve lost the argument damn right!

The libdems managed to get a referendum on limited reforms, the UK shrugged.

The EU is mentioned and held up as an example of not reformable/democratic.

The UK had a chance (it was limited yes) and didn't bother. It does seem to me that this is often a stick to beat the EU with.

Reforms do take ages of grassroots work, then getting political parties to back it, etc. Moaning just costs oxygen and a few calories.

I do think a truly PR system will do good, it works in NI. Yes Farage would have gotten a seat, but at least people can vote for who they want and in STV your transfer votes go to a similar party.

But labour and conservatives need to back reform and it'll be a lot of hard work to get there.

The libdems managed to get a referendum on limited reforms, the UK shrugged.

A fucking referendum. Clegg should’ve told Cameron, “if you want my party’s support we need a PR system implemented in this Parliament.” Instead he conceded a fucking referendum. Stupid fucking Liberals.

This. They got played like a fiddle.

Instead he conceded a fucking referendum. Stupid fucking Liberals.

The campaigning was weak - Even people that knew what was being proposed were confused by the explanations.

For most, the perception was that you were going to be forced to vote for someone that you did not want.

Stupid fucking Liberals

finally, something everyone can agree on

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48330965

Brexit: New UK PM will not alter withdrawal deal - Coveney. ROI is already preparing for the backpedalling.

The UK had a chance (it was limited yes) and didn't bother. It does seem to me that this is often a stick to beat the EU with.

It wasn't the vote that people wanted though, it was just a bit of tinkering. Compared to PR, AV likely wouldn't have resulted in much of a difference to the current situation (it would still have been on a seat-by-seat basis).

The libdems managed to get a referendum on limited reforms, the UK shrugged.

I actively voted against Nick Cleggs' 'not quite PR', and, urged friends to vote against it,
as it included a change to the House of Lords giving 15 year terms to the proposed elected HoL.
No-one needs to be immune from the electoral process for that long.

But isn't that part of the strength of the HoL - that they do not need to take a short-termist approach? By being immune to the electoral process they can actually take a stand on something, without the fear of being deselected.

15 years seems a decent compromise - you dont want them hanging on for ever, cashing their expenses and falling asleep, but you want them to know they can do what they think is right, even if it doesn't fit with their political party's current position.

I would be more than happy with professional specialists, who actually knw something about a subject, (even with Prof. Robert Winstons' dmail/curtain-twitching responses to cycling), being given say, 7-year terms, with the proviso that they are avowedly non-Party aligned, but Clegg's intention was to allow know-nothing ex-MPs to sign for their £300/day with 15 years impugnity for doggedly following a party line.
See Eric Pickles for more detail.

Whataboutism misdirects, deflects, refuses to engage with the actual point.

Yeah, but who gets to decide what the "actual point" is? When discussions focus on just one cause or one effect of the problem to the exclusion of others, it can become obvious that it's just because they have a particular axe to grind.

Em. Why tag that one to a voting change system?

Though aren't they life peers atm? 15 years is still better than life?

I don't often rate Owen Jones' articles, but this is a good takedown of 'Change UK':

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/17/change-uk-joan-ryan-look-at-your-hands

He does seem to specialise in writing earnestly about things after everyone has quite capably already made up their own mind. So, you are left to conclude that that the article is in some way just about him, or he’s just playing to his echo chamber.

Stolen from Twitter:

The FTSE Local, which only includes stocks that make 70% or more of their revenues in the UK, is now down more than 60% in U.S. dollar terms against global stocks in the last 15yrs.

Two big legs down, you can take a guess why.

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A succinct summary of Boris Johnson

https://twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/1130757074542047233?s=19

PM giving an 'important' speech on Brexit at 4pm according to Downing St.

Something tells me there will be nothing new.

Nooo--what makes you think that?

These guys have rolled out their recommendations.

https://www.remainvoter.com/

They forgot about the two NI independents who are Remain.

We have STV here (single transferrable vote) so placing them on the list is still good.

aren't they the only ones that recommend voting for change UK?

recommends I vote change uk, not sure if that's a wasted vote or not.