EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

Scotland is still relevant, you know

Apologies - I didn't mean it as Scotland being irrelevant, rather that the "40 years ago" point he's making is irrelevant. It seems like an odd time to be having a go at the SNP in any case when there's the state of the Tory party in front of him.

I imagine there's a calendar with all the anniversaries of previous slights in it and today this one came up.

Probably one of the best uses of SNA I've seen! What's the source?

Can’t remember where I saw it but this is the original https://alexandreafonso.me/2019/03/28/mapping-preferences-over-brexit-in-the-house-of-commons/

Thanks!

we voted to bring back good old fashioned mainland blue-top you bastard. none of that france-adjacent gold-top muck anymore.

But naturally, off-shore Jersey milk still comes in gold-top.

I am so sick of the self-serving agendas of the politicians and the shadowy stuff behind everything. The dysfunction in the country is grotesque, and any which way round, there is a total failure to put meaningful thought or action into beginning to address real problems that affect a far greater part of the population. This kind of thing is entirely unacceptable in what is touted as leading world nation:

Annual poverty figures published today have shown that the number of poor children living in working families has risen from 67% to 70%. According to an Child Poverty Action Group analysis, the figures also show that there are 200,000 more children living in absolute poverty and 4.1m children in poverty after housing costs are taken into account, meaning 30% of UK children are below the poverty line.

:(

Margaret Thatcher is still remembered with much hatred up there. The SNPs interest in social welfare is relatively new. It's a message that will resonate with the middle-aged and older but mean little to most people younger than that.

It'll have almost no effect on the balance on power in Scotland, though. The SNP is playing Brexit very well and Labour's official line on that (or lack of it) is useless in comparison.

How can the BBC and everyone else refer to David Liddington as Theresa May’s effective deputy? Nothing about her cabinet or government is effective.

nothing less than milk straight from the teat of a cow will do for me now. Frog Louis Pasteur can sod off, telling me what milk i can or can't safely drink.

The SNP are having a great Brexit. They do benefit from balanced reporting though.
For all the complaints about Labour and Corbyn in particular, I think they've been nothing if not consistent.

They wanted a general election - vote of no confidence didn't pass.
They tabled a second referendum - not enough votes.
They tabled an alternative, with supporting noises from the EU - not enough votes. (Though won over former Conservative Chancellor Ken Clarke.)

Again, worth noting that JC and all but 27 labour MPs supported the confirmatory referendum.

The truth is, the Conservatives own the Brexit shit show, lock stock and barrel. Yet from the reporting in almost all the UK news, I'd surmise that some in the media are more afraid of a moderate dose of socialism than they are of Brexit.

They tabled an alternative, with supporting noises from the EU

Wait wait wait wait.

What alternative, specifically? I've yet to hear what Labour actually thinks they can achieve. Calling for 'something else' and a 'better brexit' isn't a plan.

It’s on their website and has been reported on since November. Not saying I agree with it, but it is an alternative. Frankly they could propose free cake and Champagne for all the chance it has of passing.

I've been following the whole thing quite closely and all I've heard reports of is the call for 'alternatives'. Following your suggestion, I searched 'brexit proposal' on the Labour website, and what it comes up with is this, which contains this brilliant quote from Corbyn:

After serious talks with senior MPs from across parliament, I believe it should be possible to agree a deal with the EU that secures a close economic relationship before the European parliament elections. I look forward to discussing this with European leaders today.

... that was a week ago. Not promising.

Searching on Google gets me to this page, which doesn't actually contain any specifics on their 'plan' beyond what they'd like for the transition period, and which leads me to their manifesto page that talks about negotiating brexit. A quick search for keywords, and there we are:

fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union

Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union.

... and already we have a basic impossibility, according to the principles that the EU has declared many many many times.

Basically no, Labour has no actual plan, but they sure do have a way with words to cover that up. Don't get me wrong, if I was a UK citizen I'd definitely still vote for Labour without fail, based on their general principles and the FPTP system. But they don't have any credible alternative to offer on brexit.

You're definitely correct on the chance of their 'alternative' passing, though.

This is worth a read albeit quite depressing

https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1111261953362661376

This seems a broad outline- https://labour.org.uk/press/labour-tables-alternative-plan-close-economic-relationship-eu/

Given they're not the government and haven't been negotiating with the EU for the last 3 years, what can you expect? It's a starting position, not an effective deal. M. Barnier described the proposal as "interesting in tone and substance." Genuinely, I'm curious as to what else they could do?

Genuinely, I'm curious as to what else they could do?

Commit specifically to one of the options on this slide as a 'starting position':

It's not like anything significantly different from that is going to fly.

Again, worth noting that JC and all but 27 labour MPs supported the confirmatory referendum.

Loads of them 'abstained' (didn't indicate yes or no) though, didn't they?

Yep.

Because otherwise they'll end up on that chart somewhere in two years.

Admitting the leave the EU is not a la carte seems impossible to do ATM for Tories and Labour.

Bercow Beethoven Bone

https://twitter.com/rhodri/status/1111254719777914881?s=09

Regardless as to whether something resembling those options is the likely end game, it would be electoral suicide to accept a starting position defined by the EU before substantial negotiations take place.

This almost looks like it might be fun, but like the real thing it's been left too late to organise properly.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/brexittherealdeal/brexit-the-real-deal/description

That's definitely true, especially as a majority seemingly just cannot get their heads around the fact that those are, by and large, the available options. They are though.

But when talking about actual 'alternative plans' rather than electibility, well, there are some vague guidelines as to what they'd like to achieve which frankly sound no more achievable than what some of the brexiteers would like. So I'm afraid as far as actually 'tabling an alternative' goes, that's still a pretty clear 'nope' from me.

But as I said before, if I could vote, I'd still vote for Labour despite this, so this is not meant to say "Labour are irredeemably shit" or anything close to it.

@JWestland

Yeah it's a political impossibility, it seems. So right now it seems like politicians are choosing between having a working plan and being electable.

Catch-22 indeed...