Any question answered...

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  • True. :)

    There are uses for Toucans, but they were rather over-used through LCN and LCN+ funding.

  • Good stuff, thanks

  • Thanks @Oliver Schick et al. Explanation makes sense. Not sure I've ever noticed someone using one of those 'jug handles' to stop and cross at a crossing but good they exist for cyclists with less confidence, I guess.

  • Pretty sure that the pavement bike lane is there for the benefit of those cyclists who want to turn right (all other traffic 'has' to turn left) using the controlled crossing, and then cross the the South Circular (using a second controlled crossing) to join the eastbound side.
    Or am I stating the bleedin' obvs?

    ETA - Beaten to it by O.Schick.

  • I can lend you these if you decide not to bring yours with you (and you are able to meet me somewhere in the centre of town). They are for a new bike that has not yet arrived so absolutely no inconvenience to me if you take them for a little while. And I'm not fussy about scratches and things as long as they still work when I get them back

    Or you could pop down to the Bike Station to buy a really cheap set (like £1, but nothing really fancy)

    Or post your own up to me/some other Edinburgher and we'll get them to you when you get here?

  • The marking is what is known as a 'jug handle' (because of its shape) and its purpose is to introduce shared-use provision (walking and cycling) on the footway there to enable cyclists to ride up to the 'Toucan' ('two can' cross, i.e. people walking and cycling) crossing, which they obviously wouldn't be able to access unless they were on the shared-use 'footway' first. If you look at the whole junction, all of the crossings have the dual provision of the normal pedestrian lights and the additional cycle green light. This means that all the footways around have to be shared use, and you can indeed see more 'jug handles' and the blue 'shared use' diagram up on the lamppost on the footway around that left turn.

    In one of the many little absurdities usually thrown up by these crap designs, there's no 'jug handle' where the dropped kerb is for the residential driveway entrance, probably because the distance between the corner and the driveway entrance is too short for one and it seemed unnecessary to the engineer. By the logic of the design, there should really be one, both for clarity and because there doesn't seem to be any indication of where shared use really ends. I can't see any indication that shared use continues along the A205 London Road, but you could perhaps argue that the signing and marking is misleading if you were stopped for riding along the footway.

    But yes, the signs indicate that shared use is lawful along this piece of footway around the junction and you're quite within your rights to mount the footway and turn left in this way. You should obviously take extra care in re-entering the carriageway at the driveway, because chances are that when you turned the corner the main drag will have had a green light, or that Sydenham Hill will have had a green light in the meantime, while you have to look up to 180 degrees behind to see what's going on. Both factors increase the possibility that you may come into conflict with traffic on the A205 after turning left at red in this way.

    You and that swiss guy would loose your shit completely here in Berlin

  • Ha, no. I've been to Berlin and while there are issues with German traffic regulations and carriageway markings, too, there are also some strengths that British conventions don't have. It's all a bit much of a muchness, really. Obviously, I can't speak for @SwissChap. :)

  • The marking is what is known as a 'jug handle' (because of its shape)

    [citation needed]

    I'd have though the arrangement was called a jug handle not because of the shape of the marking but because of the shape of the path taken by a vehicle using the left slip to turn right, or more commonly as it's a feature of many junctions in the US, taking the right slip to turn left in right-lane driving territories.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jughandle

  • I don't know about Britain to be honest, but here there's often a very lively mix of
    no cycle lane (so go on street or use pavement), then "jug-handle" to cycle lane / "shared use" (use this or just stay on the street, as) 20 meters later cycle lane markings jug handle back to street (where delivery truck is parking 24/7, forcing you to a full stop), 20 meters later proper nice dedicated cycle lane (but have to bunny-hop on it as workers in berlin not willing nor able to lower the fucking kerb properly),etc.
    Thus everybody that is smart and fast enough just drives on the street (which isn't illegal by the way even if there is a dedicated cycle lane, it's just you have to tell this to angry car drivers some times).
    The chaotic cycle lane situation leads to quite a lot of that *I have no indication that I should be expecting bikes, so I'd probably get pretty annoyed if someone cycled at me * - just because it's quite a mess here lots of places really.
    Add a million drunk tourists on rent bikes in summer to this and you might even consider public transport.

  • Yes, that's what the expression originally came from, and of course we have 'jug handles' of this type in London, too, e.g. the 'right' turn from Denmark Hill to Coldharbour Lane. For the cycle-specific version that involves the footway, the expression became one for the actual shape of the marking, though (partly, I think, also because once the marking has been used by a cyclist, multiple paths become possible, many of which don't look like a jug handle (e.g., a right turn by means of jug handle onto footway--Toucan crossing--footway--Toucan crossing, footway, possibly back into the carriageway) whereas the path in the automobile version usually does).

  • There are similar mixes of rubbish cycle facilities in Britain all over the place; you may not have seen Crap Cycle Lanes:

    http://wcc.crankfoot.xyz/facility-of-the-month/

    They'll always keep coming back, but you've got to fight them on the beaches, etc.

    Thus everybody that is smart and fast enough just drives on the street (which isn't illegal by the way even if there is a dedicated cycle lane, it's just you have to tell this to angry car drivers some times).

    Does Berlin remove the blue signs as required by law now? If not, technically cycle tracks fitted with them are still benutzungspflichtig, it's just that the Amtsentscheid that is behind their presence will be rechtswidrig (I'm probably using these legal terms completely wrongly, so German lawyers may well have to correct them, but that's how I understand them). As far as I know, few transport authorities have actually implemented the very clear directives set down in the judgement by the Bundesverwaltungsgericht in November 2010:

    https://www.bverwg.de/181110U3C42.09.0

    Hm, I thought there was a further elaboration of that in January 2011, but I can't find it now.

    For instance, in Mainz the blue signs are still up almost everywhere, even though the traffic head honcho promised years ago that they'd be removed everywhere except on a de facto urban motorway.

  • Long story short: yes, you have to use the cycle lane when there's the blue sign.
    You may choose freely to drive on the street or the cycle lane when there is no sign.
    In Berlin about 85% of cycle lanes are without sign.

    • Where's the cheapest place for Mavic 11sp Shimano freehub bodies?
    • What is the best value disc brake pads for my Sram Level brakes? Constantly caked in mud/grit, 90kg rider. Assume sintered, also will any/every that fit Avid Elixir also fit? Cheers
  • The main issue I have with cycling in Germany is the Benutzungspflicht. It's a really really bad idea as it allows people to banish cyclists from the roads. Which is the whole point, of course, so not that bad an idea from that perspective.

  • There is Benutzungspflicht on the cycle lanes designated with the blue sign.
    They're for when the road is deemed really dangerous so bikers stay off and get their own lane.
    This is actually really cool (I love having my own lane / only have to share it with fellow cyclists not cars) - but only if there is a proper nice cycle path.
    Like in Munich for example -there (often) the road is completely seperate from the cycle path, the tarmac is smooth as butter, it's actually a real joy to ride on these.

  • @Hulsroy brought a track cog in his hand luggage the other day, looked like a throwing star on the x-ray but they didn't seem to mind.

  • My problem isn't with separated lanes, it's with cyclists being obliged to use them.

  • Is anyone coming to London from Reading any time soonish and would kindly carry a frame for me in exchange for a few beers / non alcoholic treats / subsidised travel?

    Edit: hopefully sorted now

  • Thanks for the offer! Probably not organised enough to arrange posting. Think I'm gonna risk it (they aren't expensive and my brother has a spare set). Will have my helmet as well, so will look more bikey than stabby I hope.

  • That was home from Billund Airport tho. The are pretty relaxed about stuff. Just no knifes and bombs...

  • Where's the cheapest place for Mavic 11sp Shimano freehub bodies?

    I’ve got an unused ITS4 Shimano kicking around if that’s what you need.

  • Well here's a solution to your problem:
    just drive on the fucking street whenever you want like everybody else is doing.

  • Well, I've heard of people getting fines for that. The Benutzungspflicht should just be dropped.

  • Whatever it is, Benutzungspflicht is a marvellous word.

  • Does anyone have a bracket/clamp for this Edinburgh Cycles Revolution Vision front light that they don't need anymore? After many years of service mine has died but the light is still working so I'm trying to find a replacement. It's quite old and Edinburgh Cycles unsuprisingly don't have any spares.

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Any question answered...

Posted by Avatar for carson @carson

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