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The only other thing that stood out to me was the length of your speaker cables. I've found through experience that short speaker cable runs from mono block amps can improve bass control. Certainly moving to mono amps (and no pre amp) made a huge difference on one of my setups, especially in the area you are describing as weak. It is common to see huge resonant dips around the 100-300hz area, and the universal 50hz bass bump of course which makes any mid bass loss seem much more severe.
My only concern about your current setup is even if you fix the frequency issues will you be able to get a decent soundstage at the listening positioning. One of my favourite forums is hosted by a mastering engineer, he made a very good case that systems should be judged on how well they reproduce reverb in the upper mids.
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The only other thing that stood out to me was the length of your speaker cables
oh oh
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I have the possibility to move to mono amps - the cyrus power amps will comfortably run in mono and another will only set me back £300. Speaker cables are 3m. I could easily hack off a metre if necessary.
You've given me an idea though. I can try a different source to the power amp...that didn't shed any light :/
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I thought that moving to mono blocks would be easy enough from where you are at now. Changing that was a big step forward for me. Mono block amps closer to the speakers, 2ft speaker cables and no pre-amp. I did end up increasing amp power from 60 - 250w as well, that sometimes helps with woofer control.
Then I started to hear what the speaker position was doing. I've still made compromises in terms of speaker position and I'm now running a digital desk which functions as a pre amp but it all still measures pretty flat at the listening position.
I have 2 pairs of speakers I'm swapping between so I can see pretty quickly what is room and what is speaker. Sometimes that helps, mostly it just doubles the amount of work required!
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I used to run a single Rotel RB-971 amp, then I bought a second one and bridged them both to mono. They give 210 watts each as mono amps rather than 70 watts per channel that they would deliver as stereo amps. The difference is that they tighten up the whole sound (especially the bass) and deliver much more detail throughout the whole frequency range. Best change I've made to my setup.
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Just to muddy the water a little. I've found a significant improvement making sure that the amp inputs are not being overloaded. It's very easy in the digital era to send an amp a +28db signal when it's built to accept a 0db max with +28db headroom. Going to mono blocks helps as Picard has pointed out because bridged they give you a lot more power.
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I'm thinking about having a rejig of my main system.
Currently I have an Onkyo TX-NR609 AV receiver feeding B&W 602se fronts and a B&W CC6 centre. The music comes from a Sonos Connect streaming box.
I've never managed to wire in any surround speakers and this, plus running stereo through an AV amp, has meant that it is all a bit neither this nor that, as a system.
The plan is:
Get a Sonos Beam to do TV sound, pair with 2 x Sonos 1 (which I already have) for surround speakers.
Replace the Onkyo with a nice digital amp (e.g a Cyrus 6 DAC) to drive the 602se front speakers with the Sonos Connect as a source.
I can get the beam in a US black Friday deal for £270 as a friend of mine is in NYC and coming back with an empty suitcase.
I need to sell the Onkyo AV amp and the B&W CC6 centre speaker, as a partial funding source.
So, a) how does the above sound as a plan?
B) is anyone interested in the amp and the centre speaker. I'm probably looking for about £50 for the speaker and £75 for the amp.
If you are interested let me know and I'll sort out pictures.
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@mashton: nostalgia + value is pretty much the reason I went with Cyrus, for now at least. I can see myself upgrading in 3-5 years but I'll need to spend significantly more than I did for a marginal improvement and anyway, they do look cool. The combination of Sonos + Cyrus seems like it will give you a really good solution - Cyrus streamers are lagging behind a bit but their second hand amp stages and DACs are solid (IMHO).
are you happy with the 602s? And definitely happy with Sonos? Where/what is your music library source? If you're good with speakers and Sonos then I would say the 6 DAC will be underpowered, you'll need an 8 DAC or an 8 XPD. Otherwise, assuming you're committed to Cyrus, the other option is track down an 8 DAC XP or a Pre2 DAC (or grab a streamline V2 (like me)) for your preamp stage, keep the onkyo as a power stage and replace it later with an 8 Power / X power. Happily they're all about the same price (±£500) with the exception of the power amps which are cheaper. There are an older range of amps (smooth black paint) which I don't know much about, there might be some bargains to be had there too.
I'd try to stay away from separate power supplies if you can - one more box to go wrong (repairing any Cyrus unit is around £350) - and instead spend the money on a higher rated / quality power stage.
I must admit, I've been quite tempted by multi-room streaming which is really the only reason I can see to buy a Sonos. If you're not playing multiroom then there are a whole different set of options on the table.
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Thanks for the reply that is really useful.
I am quite deep invested in Sonos already, so it makes sense to add to the system. The source us Google play music which is not going to be ideal, but I can change that if necessary. It's the old battle of convenience vs quality.
I have had the B&W 602se for years and years and don't see any reason to get rid of them. Unless you can advise differently?
Why do you say that the 6 DAC will be under powered?
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I guess you should always try to build a system around the speakers so it's always a good idea to start there. Perhaps listen to some alternatives before you commit? You're right the Cyrus 6 DAC has just enough power (my mistake) but if you're buying second hand (I assume so) then it's worth holding out for an 8 as the price differential is marginal and it's going to be the heart of your system for some years so you might as well invest (unless you plan to buy power amp(s) straight away). Also, if you do end up changing your speakers later you may need (want) a higher rated amp. What's your budget after you sell the amp and centre speaker?
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The budget is what I can scrape together by maybe selling a bike or something.
To be honest the sequence of events has been:
Decide to do the Sonos Beam thing on black Friday deal.
Speculate on getting a specific digital stereo amplifier.
Idly trawl eBay.
Find a Cyrus 6 DAC for under £500 and think "mmmmm".
Hastily make a plan.
Post here.
Fin.
I think what I should actually do is, get the Sonos beam, sort out surround sound, enjoy it, sit tight and keep an eye out for a Cyrus 8 DAC or equivalent whilst saving some cash. There really is no need to rush.
I am always fighting against my instant gratification personality.
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Are you planning to multi-room? The sonos bar and connect are going to set you back the thick end of almost £700, right?
You could also sell the play 1's for £200, get a decent dedicated soundbar for ±£200 (polk springs to mind) and skip the Sonos connect . Then spend the £700 you would have spent (on the connect and Beam) on a chromecast audio, a second hand Cyrus 8a and have £200 towards upgrading your speakers to a pair of oh I don't know, PMCs or something. You'll lose multi-room (edit: and surround sound) but have a much better hi-fi.
Just a thought.. :)
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Sounds like you might need to be careful about latency between these different systems in one room. Maybe it's less of an issue these days but any time you go down the surround sound route it's either very expensive to get quality across the whole system or you spend a lot to achieve a lot less in 2 channel mode.
I'm no expert in surround sound though, I've been down the road a few times but never liked all the wires, not being able to balance the rears and the effect not being that different in terms of sound stage from a decent 2 channel setup, except maybe for science fiction movies.
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No, I already have 2 x Sonos Connect, 4 X Sonos Play 1s and 1 X Sonos Play 3. Across 5 different rooms.
I am just buying a single Sonos Beam for £271 with a USD Black Friday deal. Gonna steal 2 x Sonos 1s from rooms that don't get used very often, for the surround duties.
The Cyrus + Connect combo will do Music.
The Sonos Beam and Play 1s will do TV.
The two systems will never be used at the same time and won't be grouped in any way.
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Cyrus 8 integrated amp on t'bay for £300 BIN:
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F332884636332
I could use the Sonos Connect analogue output to begin with. Then add a DAC. Then a power amp stage. Then another for 2 x mono bloc. Then some power supplies and and and and ...
(Plus start using Tidal or get some lossless rips on a home network drive.)
I like this plan better.
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nah that's the really old design and it's a really expensive way to do what you want. There's no matching DAC, and anyway if you want a DAC get an amp with a DAC in it, it'll be like £100 more than one without. This 8xpd sold for £500:
Pre XPd for sale in silver for £429:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cyrus-PreXPd-Pre-Amplifier-Q-Silver/163296905552?hash=item2605410950:g:ITsAAOSwHctbty7Z
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Audiophiles hifi appreciation thread old and new
Posted by
@coppiThat
Hi Folks! Firstly, I never could have imagined posting here. I am not an "audiophile" nor a muso. I drive a van for a living but without R4, R4Extra, R6, and various other podcasts and broadcasts, I would have driven in to a bridge support years ago. So, recently I decided to treat myself to one of these : https://www.techradar.com/uk/reviews/lg-pk7-portable-bluetooth-speaker
Now, this has had great reviews, including from "WhatHiFi" .. But when I got it I was underwhelmed. I have already a small cheapo 3W+3W speaker. This new one is a BEAST! 3kg! 20W + 20W... But side by side there is little difference (to my ears) The big one is without doubt "warmer" and "fuller" But is no "louder". I presumed that a thing originally retailing @$250/£200.00 (I paid £100.00) , and weighing in at a metric shit-tonne (official SI unit) would have a bit more "punch" My hair does not move, and horses and old ladies remain calm. My question is: Was I expecting too much? Or is my unit faulty?