That Corbyn fella...

What has he done that is anti-semitic?

Nothing unequivocally that I'm aware of - but then he probably wouldn't still be leading the party if he had. But he has done enough leave people wondering what his game actually is.

But it's labour that have the problem. Bollocks.

Maybe, but you can't use the results of that survey as unequivocal proof that the Tory party has a problem with anti semitism because it measured the voters, not the party.

For all their faults it is self-evident the Tories' don't have a problem with antisemitism.

Citation needed, obviously.

What about the two Tory candidates earlier this year found making deeply antisemitic comments?

Do Jews not give a fuck about racism so long as it's blacks and muslims getting the shit?

This is a daft hill to die on and a distraction.

UK Conservatives don’t pose an existential threat to Israel. Labour (in principle) does.

Labour needs to get to grips with it’s principles regarding religion generally.

If you think the party's investigation into antisemitism has been substandard I'd be (genuinely) interested to know what you think should be improved, aside from including a couple of extra lines in their definition of antisemitism (policy =/= practice so this would be pretty meaningless, I'm sure you'll agree).

(edited)

Not tackling racism in one party isn't an excuse for another getting away with it. Ever. No equivocation, no semantics, no excuses.

Evidence of absence and all that.

But seriously, while there are bound to be cases, what I meant is Labour are demonstrating what a problem looks like. Trying to deflect onto the Conservatives is just ridiculous in and of itself, as well as not being borne out by people in the party are saying.

So it's about Israel

Consiously or not, I can’t believe it isn’t. Obviously an aggressive religious state isn’t/shouldn’t be favoured by those holding labour values.

I don’t say this to undermine instances of anti-semitism but to explain why this will persist. There is a natural conflict.

What is labour's problem with religion?

They conflate religion with race.

Religion should be criticised. Don’t be dick about it: don’t treat Muslim women as a joke. But don’t let bad ideas into policy (hello faith schools) just because they are strongly held. None are sacred.

Sure. I just wouldn’t waste my time trying to tell people they should be more offended.

Trying to deflect onto the Conservatives is just ridiculous in and of itself, as well as not being borne out by people in the party are saying.

Can you explain what this actually means? You're making these assertions without any explanation and so they're quite hard to engage with.

Part of the difficulty I find is the lack of concrete allegations of antisemitism within the Labour party. Whilst I don't doubt for a second there are antisemites in the party's ranks who need to be rooted out, the nature and scale of the problem are obscured to the point that it makes it quite difficult to understand.

And so the goalposts keep being moved - the "conversation" has evolved from calls to expel people who have in fact made antisemitic comments (eg. Ken) and alleged dog whistles (e.g Wadsworth), to the fundamental impasse presented by JC's anti-imperialist position on Israeli occupation. The leadership is going around rooting out and taking quite strong measures against alleged antisemites, but it will never be enough because to a committed Zionist, Labour's Israel policy will always be inherently antisemitic.

So what exactly do people want them to do? I really want to understand this because it's so important that we build a robust, fully inclusive leftist movement to get rid of these fucking bastard Tories.

Edit: I want to add that it's pretty dishonest to silence claims of undue prejudice against JC and Labour on this issue and others. It's obvious that the issue is being weaponised by the right within the party and outside of it - to acknowledge so is not at odds with accepting the existence of racists in the party.

Removed examples:
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

Bingo.

This isn’t re-written. It’s missing.

I agree, they’re probably mostly quite in favour of it.

you betcha.

Though it isn't actually a Muslim Brotherhood salute.

Check my post a few pages back for concrete examples

I hadn't heard of this sign before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabia_sign

Supporters state that the gesture is used to express solidarity with what they call "the thousands wounded, killed and burnt by the Egyptian army" during the dispersal of their sit-in. The origin of the sign is unknown.

and here's Nobel prize winner Malala Yousafzai throwing shapes! Terrorist, obvs.

and look at this mad bastard!

back in your box, gammon chopz.

Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few

Bottom one is blatantly a socialist - must smear, shout down, accuse of extremist sympathies, etc...

I don't think enough people realise that you have two choices.

I’ve known this all my life and have advocated for electoral reform all my life just so that people can’t corral me into supporting someone I can’t support just because they’re less of a cunt than the Tories. Fuck off with your totalising fucking narrative.

Sorry. Getting my words in a muddle.

1. Labour have an actual problem. The party has acknowledged this.
   
2. Labour have a PR problem as shown by the media coverage.
   
3. People saying "what about the Conservatives" does not effect Labour's issues. Banging on about it looks like deflection.
   
4. Jewish MPs and members of the Conservative Party are not coming out and referencing antisemitism in the Conservative Party. The few egs here and there are not on the same scale as in Labour's case. This does not mean it doesn't exist at all, but a) it clearly isn't a political problem, and b) just as you can't prove the negative of no antisemitism, people also can't just infer that the Tories are anti-semitic without evidence. Dog whistle politics and general anti-immigration policies ≠ a problem with antisemitism.
   

It's obvious that the issue is being weaponised by the right within the party and outside of it - to acknowledge so is not at odds with accepting the existence of racists in the party.

It's true that both can co-exist. But I think the sensitivity lies in people feeling that many jumped straight to; "it's a conspiracy and doesn't exist" .

Weaponised is a pretty strong word. It seems more like politics to me. Not sure there was much concern over the weaponising of BJ's article by his internal opposition and Labour.

As well as punktures various posts in this thread check out the woman's hour interview with Margaret Hodge.

I believe most Labour supporters are not antisemitic and suspect Labour’s antisemitism crisis would be cleared up in a long weekend of talking if it weren’t for the fact that the tiny minority of anti-Israelers who have bled into antisemitism hijack any critique of their position to claim it’s an attack on Corbyn.

For that matter, Corbyn strikes me as being yet another muddled pro-Palestinian who finds themselves on marches whose ostensible aim they agree with but inevitably has some pretty extreme antisemitic fringe elements because they’re there, they turn up, it’s hard to stop them from doing so. Problem is he has used that to burnish his credentials without thinking through what his co-presence looks like retrospectively, because he never expected to be in the position he now occupies.

Anti-Semitism is acceptable folks, as long as you save the NHS in the process. I feel a bit sick.