That Corbyn fella...

but that's it, isn't it? The Israeli government want immunity from criticism while painting anyone that suggests that their actions are lamentable, is by default anti-semitic.

you're right, there is no way out. it's a fucking shitshow.

The Israeli government want immunity from criticism

The debate is not with the Israeli government. It is with Jewish labour members and MPs. These two groups are distinct and independent of each other. To collate them is, um whats the word..

Uh oh

Oh come on, now. Obviously they are distinct groups but don't try to deny that Corbyn's position on Israel/Palestine is a major driver in all of this.

How do you explain the hysteria over this alleged wreath laying if not via the Israeli occupation of Palestine?

I was referring specifically to Bibi wading in with his bollocks opinion. Maybe shoulda made that clearer.

That doesn’t really square with the table just posted but what would solve it in your opinion?

A good Owen Jones article:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/14/corbyn-wreath-terror-victims-memorial-israel-palestinian

A good Owen Jones article

That'll be a first...

No, not at all (although I don't like many of his articles).

lies damn lies and statistics?

Table, Shmable. There is an institutional problem with anti semitism in the Labour party. That is a clear fact as evidenced by all us Jews going out protesting in front of parliament about this very issue, Ken Livingstone being allowed to resign instead of being dealt with properly, numerous anti semitic issues within the party (70 odd incident backlog?), people like my mate Phil Rosenberg being hounded out of his local party meetings:http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-institutional-racism-in-my-local-labour-party/ , the bile that is directed towards Jewish MPs by Corbyn supporters and toe rags like Ken Loach and Peter willsman, Margaret Hodge and Wes Streeting being accused of using the issue as a vehicle to attack Saint Jeremy (as if the issue itself isnt important enough), etc etc etc. The evidence is there, you don't need a table to prove it.

The grey area and what is more difficult for people to understand is the link with Israel and Palestine. whatever your views on this conflict (and mine happen to be considerably more pro Palestinian than pro Israeli, but I shouldn't need to preface with this), the Labour party have sent out 2 clear messages:

1. The Labour Party of the UK's view on Israel/Palestine and their ability to criticise Israel, one of many many conflicts around the world, is much more important than the views of Jews in the UK, voters and constituents that the party might be hoped to view as important. They reject the ability of a minority to self define the discrimination against them (and believe me, a huge amount of antisemitism is directly to do with Israel, often from left wingers) so they can shout (ineffectively) from the sidelines about a conflict in another country on another continent.

2. The Labour party's view and approach is so single minded and so un-nuanced that as a political entity, they are reduced to yet another protest movement in the Israel/Palestinian debate, as they have clearly and decisively renounced all potential influence that they may have had with Israel, who, if you believe there is a solution to be had, need to be part of that solution too.

Edit.

The Labour party's view and approach is so single minded and so un-nuanced that as a political entity, they are reduced to yet another protest movement in the Israel/Palestinian debate, as they have clearly and decisively renounced all potential influence that they may have had with Israel, who, if you believe there is a solution to be had, need to be part of that solution too.

I don’t think anywhere near enough people realise this.

Edited- can't be bothered.

Exactly. Corbyn is an activist, not a leader for all people.

The Labour party's view and approach is so single minded and so un-nuanced that as a political entity, they are reduced to yet another protest movement in the Israel/Palestinian debate, as they have clearly and decisively renounced all potential influence that they may have had with Israel, who, if you believe there is a solution to be had, need to be part of that solution too.

Well they’re a British opposition party so what exactly were you expecting? In power and in the ear of the US and European nations things could be different.

Gosh yes it’s so binary

I can't imagine being jewish and being more scared of labour gaining power

But they are, it predates this flagellation of Corbyn, 70% of Jews supported Cameron when Miliband was the opposition.

ummmmmmm it sounds like you should talk to some Jewish people rather than presuming you know how they feel.

"I find it hard to understand"

Me too. I also don't have the answer.
I can't see any way out other than more dialogue, more communication, to have a better idea why people vote the way they do, and have the views they have.

I see a party that tolerates and flirts with racism

I can see two. The actions of one do not validate / excuse the actions of the other.

We do think Corbyn is anti semitic....

I definitely do, and I hate the arrogance of the left when they presume that they are inherently less racist than the right. The only racism I've had is from left wingers and its been anti semitism.

I also find the statement that you find it difficult to take Jewish complaints seriously a pretty appalling thing to say. If you are anti racist, when a minority speaks, you listen and then don't tell them how to behave, who to support or who would be better for them.

A relatively small anti-semitism problem in labour is VERY VERY SERIOUS but utterly trivial compared to racist tory government policy and blatant islamaphobia from very senior members in the party.

I'm not sure its relatively small to Jewish people though.
Transphobia is pretty small if you look at the numbers compared to to non-trans people. Its still pretty important to them though.

Being ‘anti-racist’ and comfortable with the State of Israel is not intellectually constistant.

This is why Labour attracts critiques of Israel and amongst them certainly some with lazy, bigoted perceptions of Jews.

The tories have many other problems but not this.

They might not have that specific problem but they are more anti-semitic according to yougov research commissioned by an anti-semitism charity.

Hmmm. I thought that bit of research polled voters, not the actual party itself. They are not the same thing. I think the fear comes from how close this stuff actually is to Corbo, and even his own actions.

Good post.

The latter two points are interesting. I wonder to what extent this is shaped by the current leadership being more familiar with opposition and protest, rather than experience of the compromise necessary when in power?

When you say "we do think JC is antisemitic", is that driven by the whole picture as it were, or more by specific actions / in-actions?