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(I’m fully aware how condescending I must sound but bear with me)
Good. I'm retching up my sleeve reading your posts tbh.
I love you you equate 'voting Tory' to the same kind of 'poor choice' normally described as having a few beers too many, or shagging your co worker. Real whataboutery there, all requiring equal measures of fecklessness. "Oh dear, I went out last night with a few mates, and I woke up this morning with a copy of the Daily Mail next to me and a faint recollection of voting for Boris Johnson..."
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Lots of Labour voters voted Brexit
By lots you mean about 35% which I think could be explained by their age demographic and perhaps their level of education.
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But Labour under Blair was one of the UKs strongest advocates (as a government) of PPI and globalisation, no? That’s why it was “new labour”.
Edit: Blair significantly overspent and this spending was materially not strategic investment but redistribution. He didn’t fix the problem (caused by thatcher) but just put a band-aid on it, at a cost to future generations. I wouldn’t go so far as to say he caused austerity, but he created the situation.
And my question still stands. Who or what should they vote for?
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The point I’m making here is this:
- We more or less know generally why many segments of society are disillusioned, marginalised and relatively worse off. Lack of investment in developing a society with relevant skills and creating a society in which people feel economically useful, combined with closing existing industries has created a society where the economic power is in london and services. Most people have no access to this economy because they aren’t sufficiently skilled. Add to this a lack of social investment (closing youth clubs etc) so people have less incentive for (or understanding of the benefits of) civic engagement and social collective responsibility.
- We know the cause is generally at the feet of the Tories, though labour under Blair participated and so are responsible
- We also know why we had a referendum - again caused by Tories (trying to save their skin from the threat of UKIP)
- And we know that Brexit negotiations (if you can even call them that) have been a disaster, again Tory caused chaos.
So the only bit we don’t know is why people voted for Brexit. The reason we don’t know is
A. It doesn’t appear objectively rational
B. It wasn’t along party lines
C. There is no obvious cause and effect.But to call those that voted for Brexit “Gammons”, “racist Tory cunts” and “thick”
just exposes the same (or worse) prejudices that Remainers object to in Leavers. Sure, a few are racist. But Leavers can’t have their cake and eat it either. You can’t accept point 1 above and then say to those people “you’re just a thick racist Tory cunt”.Leavers (both Tory and Labour) voted as they did because they don’t see a scenario in which globalisation, post-Industralisation and a knowledge based economy benefits them, in fact it puts them in greater servitude.
So, again, unless we solve this problem we are no further forward, Brexit or not.
- We more or less know generally why many segments of society are disillusioned, marginalised and relatively worse off. Lack of investment in developing a society with relevant skills and creating a society in which people feel economically useful, combined with closing existing industries has created a society where the economic power is in london and services. Most people have no access to this economy because they aren’t sufficiently skilled. Add to this a lack of social investment (closing youth clubs etc) so people have less incentive for (or understanding of the benefits of) civic engagement and social collective responsibility.
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What's the point, with debating with a brexitter? 1st time I've ever felt the need t
Go ahead and put me on ignore if you want. But before you do know this. I voted remain. I majored in political and economic science and I’m a behavioural economist working in finance. I had no idea the U.K. would vote to leave, in fact I lost my life savings (and much more in debt on the day) of the referendum - I had a business that was dependent on U.K. passporting of services.
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Yes and no. Average student debt on graduation is about £50k isn’t it?
And.. should they all abandon their families and friends to move to London just to get a job? What about community, doesn’t that mean something? People aren’t resources to be deployed wherever. Like you I am generally a Schumpeterian, but we’re back to the question of what purpose does society have, and does it serve me?
What’s really interesting (to me) about this point is if you tell someone who is marginalised as an economic actor that they should be more Schumpeterian, then it is perfectly rational for them to apply “creative destruction” and vote for Brexit.
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Lots of leavers exhibit racist tendencies - obviously not all. Either way every single fucking one of them has contributed towards making this country nastier to immigrants and people of colour.
Do you have any evidence for this ?
I’m not baiting you. I’m interested in how you can feel you can prove this / quantify ‘nastiness’.
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I agree with your second point about letting the Tories carry the can for this clusterfuck.
But I don’t agree that JC is the solution. Regardless of whether he is a capable leader (highly doubtful), his policies are protectionist. This won’t work in 2018. Perhaps if we were still living in 1975, had a manufacturing and agricultural economy (and the computer hadn’t been invented) this might fly. But all those horses have truly bolted.
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Well actually yes I do expect them to take a bit of responsibility for their own social mobility.
The jobs and opportunities in declining centres are not coming back via any initiative of Westminster Government.
Go where the education is and maybe future generations can bring back some innovation to their communities.
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it's depressing looking on from afar what a mess the political and economic situation thats developing it's just a total clusterfuck.
I voted to remain as I belive in the freedom of movement and employment through Europe is generally a good thing, and also dispite The EU being far far from perfect it does do a great deal of good.I wouldn't have been totally against comming out if there was a definite plan and good reasons to come out, if it could improve the UK then fair enough. Present me the case and the plan...But there wasnt and isn't a plan instead it was an arguemnt of fear and bullish posturing no coherent reasoning.
The UK government all party's have let the UK population down and that is putting it mildly.
what a fucking shit show.
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With the Tory hostile environment, the nasty leave.eu campaign that was really milking anti immigrants sentiments, an increase in hate crime and UKIP policies being absorbed into "bluekip", it is easy to say the UK is resisting right-wing populism, but I am not convinced.
The UK does not have to deal with refugees either.
A "like-for-like" article would be good. I can of course also have it wrong, but this article is very light on data.
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UKIP policies being absorbed into "bluekip", it is easy to say the UK is resisting right
and now there is a somewhat resurgent UKIP following there lurch toward the far right with there embrace of Tommy Robinson too.
Yeah I spoke too soon, Boris is back on UKIP ground again.
This might be briefly reported, and then it back to kicking Jeremy Corbyn again.
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About
EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath
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Just watch at the next General Election for Northamptonshire,
yep this Northants
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/aug/02/northamptonshire-council-plans-drastic-job-losses-and-cuts-to-all-services
See who their MPs are?
I bet you a field of unpicked brassicas the electorate will again rejoice in a clean sweep for the Tories.