That Corbyn fella...

Lol.

Interesting reading the last few pages of comments on the Labour Party's problems with anti semitism.

I'm not interested in the whataboutary that is pretty prevalent not only on this thread but seemingly on the entire left as well. Everywhere I seem to hear the same kind of reactions (What about the Tories, what about other sections of society, its a distraction /smear/overreaction to distract from the local elections, its anti Zionism not antisemitism, someone even told me to focus on issues such as global warming instead as its more important etc etc etc).

All of the above are baffling and for me as a British Jew pretty damn worrying really. I would prefer to believe that people simply haven't really taken the time to understand our point of view and are taking a binary (you are either with us or against us) standpoint on it instead of simply looking at a minority who seem to think that an issue is so insidious and problematic that we go and protest in Parliament Sq.

Whether the Conservative Party is racist is irrelevant. We are talking about the Labour party, the question is, is there antisemitism in the labour party? Yes or no? If yes then deal with it, no ifs not buts , no half arsed suspensions while a committee takes 2 years to look into the issue, then you can point at the Tories. Get your own house in order first. An old friend of mine who is Labour councillor (he also helped organise the recent protest in Parliament Sq - as an elected Labour member, what would his incentive be to see Labour do badly at the polls?) from Kilburn on Labour and it's institutionalised anti semitism problem, well worth a read:
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-institutional-racism-in-my-local-labour-party/

Here are a few other issues that show the uninformed that this is not just about a facebook comment on a mural: the constant and vile antisemitism from party members against Luciana Berger (google it), the antisemitism from party members against Lord Levy, leading to him threatening to leave the party very recently (google it), the issues that councillors in Haringey have come up against where they feel discriminated against by Momentum members BECAUSE OF THEIR RACE, not their political views (google it). For me, the only times i have ever faced antisemitism personally has singularly been from left wingers and left winger 'radicals'.

Surely if there is an issue (readily admitted by Corbyn , McDonald and a host of very worthy MPs such as David Lammy and Chukka Ummuna who have experienced the scourge of institutionalised racism first hand) then the Labour Party need to deal with it as a priority. Deflecting and explaining away our protests comes across to us Jews as a subtle form of antisemistism that we are complaining about. Do people really think that we would go and protest specifically to damage the party's electoral chances or because we just don't like Corbyn? It sounds like accusations of yet another Jewish conspiracy.

This is a good take: On a personal level, what I have found most depressing about antisemitism in Labour is the ready assumption that Jews would so readily sell short millennia of persecution for an easy political hit. Our history is not a bargaining chip. It is a threat we have faced from generation to generation in some form or other. In the last century, most calamitously.

tl:dr Jews are saying theres a problem with antisemitism, take them seriously, don't deflect to the Tories because its irrelevant and read up about the background before brushing the complaints off

A 'dog whistle' is a descriptive term, used to explain hidden racist messages, for example: Theresa May's decision as Home Secretary to have vans with 'Go Home' driven around London was a dog-whistle to racist voters.

A 'straw man' is a common form of argument based on refuting something that was not presented in the original discussion, such as grooming gangs are allowed to continue because of liberal PC behaviour, I'm just telling it like it is.

Also thanks to Punkture for the bang-on comment explaining stuff.

So you can dismiss any view not based on substance but rather because you believe it’s a secret call to hordes of racists?

That doesn’t hold water. It’s deflection and an aside. It’s akin to a strawman and you shouldn’t be taken seriously.

More importantly... it stands in conflict with possible consensus and sorting anything out.

applause

What @punkture said.

PS - more crypto-Tory centrist Dad types are trying to undermine Corbyn
https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/02/labour-antisemitism-more-widespread-than-thought-momentum-says?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true

So we accept the perception of anti-semitism but not dog-whistle racism?! I don’t get your argument - almost everything has more weight given to the reception than intent.

crypto-Tory centrist Dad

Not sure if /s

If it was, apologies, but all this "bet you're a fucking tory" and "centrist-dad" is a pretty divisive way to debate.

Dads are so patriarchal tho

Sorry I have no idea what you are saying.

Did lol

and will bank as a witty one-liner

what's the endgame here? anyone that votes labour is an anti-semite? it's going well.

I've been thinking about this a lot and here's my take: I think I (and many others) struggle here because of classic cognitive dissonance. Not because Labour is antisemitic (it, as a party and a majority of people, obviously is not), but because the dialogue around the topic is a quagmire when it comes to perspective and fairness. Here's where my thought process is right now:

First, the reason Labour-antisemitism claims have more traction is the same reason Israel's human rights issues have more traction - as the party of equality and the only democracy in the Middle East, we expect better of both. This doesn't make it fair, but it may help clarify the reality of coverage, to an extent.

Second, I think this is further complicated by the fact that those on the receiving end of these attacks may, naturally, recognize something in the claims which is not there. In the case of Israel, critics are actually antisemitic. Why else would they make an issue out of Israel and not instert-other-country-here? There most be something specific about the Jewish people which would bring them to sanction Israel rather than any other country. In the case of Labour, critics are right-wingers - why else would the criticism be specifically aimed at Labour? There must be something about Labour which irks specifically, or else there would be no need to highlight one party in particular.

I think this thought process has helped me make sense of the issue, anyway. We, on the left, wouldn't excuse Israel of human rights issues simply because other regimes do equal and worse. So we shouldn't excuse antisemitism in Labour because it may find a more natural home amongst other parties.

The simplest solution is for very explicit, recorded, and clear processes to expunge antisemitism in Labour. I don't think this is an impossible task. I also think that this process is already underway. It needs to be further clarified, and connections with the Jewish community made to support it and get feedback. This is because there has to be faith on the other side (in any situation like this) that this process is legitimate.

what's the endgame here?

Getting the anti-semites to jog on, demonstrating strength of leadership and disproving the general feeling that Labour are being run by the second team?

Just a few sensible objectives off the top of my head.

Endgame for me personally is to get rid of the antisemitism in the discourse in the left which frankly scares the life out of me at the moment and makes me very nervous.

Also to force Labour to actually do something instead of offer mealy mouthed words which is all that has been done as yet.

Then hopefully I'll be able to vote for the Labour party again.

Not wishing to make light of the issue, but I do think Labour have been doing something about it. Just a bit slowly and ineffectively.

Also to force Labour to actually do something instead of offer mealy mouthed words which is all that has been done as yet.

i agree. what would you suggest beyond what has been done to date?

Simply, I don’t see how you can blanket dismiss one perception of racism and accept another.

Not to suppose who you vote for instead but that sentiment (Shared also in the comments on the article you previously linked to) is why people point out that the Tories are much worse.
I can see why it looks overly defensive and whataboutism etc but it certainly seems as if a sizeable proportion of the media attacks are in bad faith.

Deal with the 100+ complaints of antisemitism in the party Now, not tomorrow or in 2 years (like with Ken Livingstone). Kick people out of the party who are guilty of things like sharing Facebook posts if Holocaust denial, sending antisemitic hate mail, make an example out of Ken Livingstone asap and make it clear that his increasingly bizarre comments are not tolerated. Suspension is not ok, kick them out if it's an important issue. Antisemitism training, conference etc sound good and can be twinned with anti islamophobia and other forms of anti racism as it's clear that people need to be properly educated on these subjects. It would be good to hear Labour step up and say, this stuff is unacceptable, these people have no place in our party and these views have no place in our discourse so get out and don't come back.

An apology is fine but it is nothing without action

So the media jump on the bandwagon. Oh well. More interested in the issue.

Not that it matters but I have previously voted for the Tories, Greens and the Lib Dems. Last election I voted for Corbyn's Labour party.

Which sentiment do you refer to?

I’m mocking the people who debate that way. It’s a story about Momentum - that well known centrist dad phenomenon - saying yes, maybe the anti-semitism is a bigger problem than we thought before.

I agree with this too.

‘I won’t for Labour/Conservatives are now the party for me’
I do not doubt there is anti-semitism within the Labour Party, I’ve reported racist memes/comments myself on Facebook groups but as a stick with which to exclusively beat labour it seems extremely contrived. I don’t think Jewish people are selling their history short to score cheap points, I think their very real fears and concerns are being used by a terrified establishment.