Wheelbuilding / Wheel Building / Wheel build help

Why would you not just buy new spokes??

Because these rims were a tenner from my local bike charity and were just supposed to be a stopgap solution to learn wheelbuilding basics on. They're quite heavy and don't particularly suit the bike or do these Record hubs justice. If I'm spending 20 quid on new spokes I might as well just drop a bit more on shallow open pros or H+S tb14s and use my current spokes.

I'm mainly wondering if it's possible to do (symmetrical) 4 cross on 32h or I just messed up the lacing.

Yeah, fair enough, though unless you luck out and get rims with exactly the same ERD, you'd still have to get new (or recut) spokes.

As far as 4x goes, probably entirely dependent on your hub dimensions. The spokes might end up crossing other spoke heads, which you don't want

Cool, I might give 4x another shot then. The tb14 have almost identical ERD to the Ambrosio Crono that are on there currently, so I should be OK if I end up ordering them.

Thanks!

Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but I took a wheel to my LBS to have a spoke replaced and after getting it back, two spokes have failed within the first 100km. Is the tension all out/is it going to need to be rebuilt?

Novatec Centrelink hubs are hard to get hold off.

Danstuff. This method is the correct way. The other methods give slightly different lengths i think.

Using 48 spokes cross 5 in the calculator:

resulting right side spoke length - ((3.14*right flange diameter)*0.0104).

I have used this a couple of times and it is spot on for 3x DS and in 16:8 pattern.
using 3.17x will result in the spokes being too long!

A full treatment is
For a normal build (equal # of spokes on each side), using the following notation:
E = ERD of rim
D = Diameter of flange
X = flange offset
N = Number of spokes
i = Number of crosses

Define:
Theta = 2 * Pi * i / (N / 2) = 4 * Pi * i / N = angle measured at the hub between a line passing through a hub spoke hole and wheel center and the line passing through rim spoke hole and wheel center for the same spoke

... then, aside from a correction of about 0.8mm from spoke stretch (~0.6mm) and extra spoke hole room (~0.2mm), the length of the spoke comes out to be:

Length = 0.5 * sqrt [ X^2 + E^2 + D^2 - 2 * E * D * cos( theta ) ]

[Note this matches with the results of United Bicycle Institute online calculator]

When one laces a triplet wheel with 24 spokes (16 DS, and 8 NDS), the angle theta turns out to be:

Theta_triplet = 2 * Pi * (19/4) / 24 = 4 * Pi * 4.75 / 48... ie the same angle as for a 48 spoke wheel laced with 4.75 crosses, or a 32 spoke wheel laced with 3.17 crosses

If one's calculator forces an integer for the number of crosses, and one made the calculation for a 5x wheel with 48 spokes, it would lead to a length that is slightly too long, because the angle theta would be off by Pi / 48 radians. If one imagines just the key spoke laced, then it'd be like rotating the hub by an extra quarter of the 24 hole spoke separation of the rim. Since the DS spokes are pretty much perpendicular to a radial line through the spoke hole, the effect of this is to change the length by roughly the angle of rotation multiplied by the radius of the hub flange, ie

Approx_length_error = Pi * (D / 2) / 48 = Pi * D / 96 = Pi * D * 0.010416666

There is a thread on Weight weenies a long time ago about this.

4x wont work on 32H.

Ambrosio crono ERD is 615mm and TB14 is 610mm. Not close enough to use the same spokes. Do the job right or not at all.

If spokes are failing get them all replaced.

There may indeed be a tensioning issue as mechanics won't usually re-tension wheels thoroughly after replacing just one spoke. However, this is unlikely to cause the spokes to pop unless they are severely under-tensioned. What is more likely is that you need to rebuild the wheel with new spokes and nipples, as Cycleclinic suggests.

Take note of where the spokes are snapping. If the breaks are close to the J-bend, the wheel has probably been under-tensioned for some time, allowing the J-bends to move about in the holes in the hub flange, which has weakened them. If your chain has ever gone into your spokes, this may have scratched/gouged them and caused weakness in a similar way. If the breaks are close to the threaded end of the spokes, you may have some corrosion between spoke and nipple and rim, which is making the spokes more brittle.

Hope that helps.

According to this

it's just a straight forward hollow axle.

This for £3.99 from SJS would probably do the job no?

Edit: I imagine buying even a single genuine shimano cone would render the project financially non-viable.

Or it could be a simple case of fatigue caused by alot of miles.

This is why when a wheel comes in with a broken spoke I advise replacing all of them because where one has gone other will folliw. Also nipples often don't turn freely so it is difficult to true the wheel without getting spoke twist and raising the tension as that is often needed is a non starter.

Yes, I found that post on the Weightweenies forum but was put off by its internal inconsistencies. 'using 3.17x will result in the spokes being too long!' seems difficult to reconcile with 'When one laces a triplet wheel with 24 spokes (16 DS, and 8 NDS), the angle theta turns out to be.... the same angle as for... a 32 spoke wheel laced with 3.17 crosses'. The post seemed to be saying that 3.17x was wrong, you should be using a figure of 3.17x instead...

So I want to have a go at teaching myself to build wheels.

Bought the e-book/pdf, watched all the vids, going to order hubs and rims. Need to tool up. Spoke key and nipple driver the easy bit. Any recommendations on a home mechanic truing/building stand and dishing tool before I buy the parktool ts8 and wag5?

If you're planning to build lots of wheels, I would invest in better kit. In terms of the jig, I would recommend something with adjustable pins (the bit that touches the rim) on both sides. I have had lots of experience with the WAG5 and I found that it flexes really easily, which means you have to be very gentle with it to get an accurate reading. The WAG4 is much better.

Also, you'll want a tension meter and metric conversion table. This is important because rim manufacturers will specify a recommended spoke tension, usually in Kilograms Force. No need to go digital, something like the TM1 will do fine. Alternatively if you have a good idea of how tight the spokes should feel, you can get even tension by using a guitar tuner and plucking each spoke.

Hope that helps.

If you're only building for yourself I'd say a tensionmeter is a bit ott.

Maybe if you want to be building weight weenie carbon rims but otherwise nah.

Haven't used the ts8 but I have used one of these

Which I think actually looks sturdier than the ts8 but it was still a total pain in the dick to use. I'm kinda spoiled as I have access to a TS2.2 at work and one at home as well but I'd rather use zipties on my seatstays than one of those cheap stands.

@cycleclinic thanks for the info re Novatec and CL.

Does the DT swiss 350 convert to 11 speed road simply with the appropriate freehub and end cap?

I'm interested in this hub but it says shimano mtb 9,10,11

https://www.bike24.com/p2180968.html
Cheers

Is this the correct one?
https://www.sigmasports.com/item/DT-Swiss/11-Speed-Freehub-Conversion-Kit/2F38

I'm interested in this hub

You should be interested in this one
https://www.bike24.com/p2210707.html
it's cheaper and says it's Road 11-speed already.

@mdcc_tester ta thats a good shout but I've got a good deal on pair of CLs mtb version. I thought I'd take the 11 speed mtb version and put a new 11 speed road on a d sell the 11 speed mtb freehub.

I thought I'd take the 11 speed mtb version and put a new 11 speed road on a d sell the 11 speed mtb freehub

I wouldn't rely on getting any money for the MTB freehub, so you're looking at a straight £63 or thereabouts to get the road 11-speed conversion kit. If your deal on the MTB hubs is good enough to make that worthwhile, go ahead.

Is this the correct one?

On the assumption that the MTB hubshell and axle is identical to the road one, then yes.

@mdcc_tester you could be correct ta for the input.

I'd echo other voices here and recommend a sturdier stand like those mentioned or the Hozan; look around for second hand, the better ones are sturdy enough to last decades.

That's interesting, they're all failing at the bend! Sounds like a complete rebuild is on the cards.