Responsible meat-eating

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frankenbike in reply to @r_mash
The ancestral angle holds no water for me. Our ancestors probably literally flung shit at each other like chimps, murdered each other with impunity, and I except only a small fraction of children were conceived with both parties "consenting".

In modern times no one needs to eat meat or dairy to survive, so what our ancestors did is not relevant. You might as well say "our ancestors threw shit at other so I'm going to start doing that".

Of course, I'm not saying that everyone should become vegan. There are plenty of reasons not to do so, some better than others, some of which you also mentioned in your comment. Just pointing out that the fact that our ancestors did it doesn't mean anything at all when it comes to what we should be doing today.

Anyway, here's some general advice for everyone from a recent vegan:
- pinhead oats are great for the mornings. You boil some water, pour it over your oats, cover the bowl with a plate and in 10 minutes they're done. By far the best milk-less porridge I've been able to make (Scottish porridge is also really good but I can't make it). Where they really shine is camping - they're as easy to make as those little premade porridge pots, but have the advantage of being vegan, being cheaper, producing less waste and packing into your bag more efficiently. And since you're not cooking them (just boiling water) they use less gas than normal porridge. They are a little hard to find though - I bought a huge bag of like 5kg off Amazon and I've been eating through that for the last few months. And you need to add something to them really as they're a little bland by themselves. But I recommend them for anyone, not just people who want to their reduce dairy intake. (There is a name for that sort of porridge - pinhead oats covered with water - but I've forgotten it.)
- You can actually make oat milk fairly easily. You just blend oats and water and then strain it to remove the chunks. (Optionally I think you can leave it overnight before straining.) It's definitely way cheaper than buying oat milk but I've never tried it myself so I don't know whether it's as good. Interestingly this is why the pinhead oats method works so well - you effectively make oat milk but then eat it rather than straining it. So you get a nice creamy porridge with just water.
- Regarding tea and coffee, I've switched to espresso and green tea (and occasionally black tea). Not for everyone but I find buying in nut/oat milk a bit of a hassle. You know on a Sunday morning when you've got no milk in and desperately want a cup of tea but have to go to the shop first and it's raining outside? I thought "sod that, I'd rather force myself to enjoy milkless drinks". And again this is ideal for when you go camping, where tea and coffee have always been difficult for me. I just take my aeropress and a bag of coffee grounds. But if someone makes me a cup of tea with cow milk in it I still drink it, because it's by far the most delicious thing that I'm not allowed as a vegan. It was the hardest thing to give up. Also buying espressos in a cafe saves you a small amount money but more importantly earns you massive coffee snob points and makes you look like a 1970s hardman TdF cyclist.
- Bourbons are vegan. And who doesn't like bourbons? No one, that's who.
- For cooking the rest of the time, it's not as hard as you might think. You just need to have a different set of stuff in your kitchen cupboards and a different rota of standard meals. Obviously you have to learn a bunch of new recipes but that's fine. But in the spirit of the thread, I think gradually phasing your cooking from meat say 7 times a week to less often but higher quality is the way to go. One could try one new vegan recipe every week say, so eat meat 6 meals a week. By doing that you have a chance to learn the recipes, and as you learn more of them it becomes easier to increase the number of meat-free meals per week. Otherwise with a cliff-edge approach you're going to have to learn 6 recipes in a single week which is a bit much.
Soz for the essay all, just dump of relevant info out of my brain.

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ffm in reply to @frankenbike

I agree that historical or evolutionary precedent is no reason to either support or reject something. Unfortunately, everyone's life will have some impact on animals. We destroy their habitats when we build our homes, roads, shops, and factories that make the shit we buy. When we farm crops we displace or kill them to maximise yield. I'm not convinced that killing animals for food is fundamentally different from killing animals for any of the reasons above. We don't need to eat meat, but then we don't need to play golf or buy iphones (etc. etc.) either, both of which will have quite some impact on animals and their environment.

It's not unreasonable to argue that we shouldn't bring animals into the world just for the purposes of killing them later, but when we do so we make a tacit contract with the animal that we will provide it with a life that is as natural, comfortable and safe as possible and a quick stress-free death at the end of it. As a result many domesticated animals live much happier lives than their wild cousins.

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wildwest in reply to @ffm

I disagree ancestral and evolutionary factor are very strong... It's our genetics that determine our urges and that what a cravings are.
Remember that meat and carbs would have been seasonal and we have been hardwired to gorge on such things when they are in plentiful supply to benefit us during difficult times.
The way we put on fat for example is very different from area to area... the indian subcontinent for example historically had a famine/draught every 7 years or so. This visceral fat that would have been utilised during this time is now the cause of high rates of diabetes and heart disease much more then the wider population. The same can be said of Arabs that have replaced sheep/goat herding and fishing with wafting around airconditioned shopping malls will fast food and desert bars. Kuwait has a population that one third diabetics.
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wildwest in reply to @ffm

We need to seriously assess our domestic pets... firstly the lack of genetic diversity has caused horrendous medical issues and often we have no choice but to put them down eventually.
We've got to a stage were breeds such as bulldog can't even mate with each other without human intervention because we have breed certain feature that we required or preferred. Quite strange.
Inbreeding is also a problem with humans too, to less of a degree.
I doubt that domestic pet have happier lives them wild ones... possibly less stressful tho.
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MCamb in reply to @ffm

We destroy their habitats when we build our homes, roads, shops, and factories that make the shit we buy.

This is obviously a problem and not ideal.

But to me it is on a completely different scale to the endless cycle of abuse we inflict upon farm animals.

So many generations confined to the fate that we've set for them... I think it's sad. Especially as we're in a country that is privileged enough to offer an alternative, as has already been mentioned.

that's sort of my sentiments anyway.

Apologies for the ramble.

Responsible meat-eating

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