Responsible meat-eating

It's the mistreatment that's the primary issue. Veal calves by definition have short lives and welfare standards in the industry are generally fairly low, with the exception of some UK producers. It's not all that long since 'crated' veal was banned and UK standards give a greater space allowance and better dietary specification than the EU does.

and the reality is having a balanced diet with no meat or dairy is hard.

Not sure I agree with that, unless you’re allergic to nuts/legumes of course.

I think the only meat eating I could get on board with nowadays would be roadkill or possibly raising an animal and consuming nose to tail, only if you have the huevos to bump it off yourself of course. I couldn’t do it but if you can then fair enough.

Not sure there’s any responsible way to consume dairy. As soon as I really thought about how it was produced it took less than a second to know I’d never touch it again.

Maybe "not easy" is a better way to phrase it. Meat contains loads of vitamins and minerals as well as just protein. To make sure you have a healthy balanced diet without it requires more thought.

Tbh dairy is a poor substitute, but does at least give some animal fats. Milk is probably the worst / most useless of all.

The only vitamin missing from a meat-free diet is B12.
Sprinkle some yeast into a stew, or eat Marmite.

It's a fair point.

But ecosystems/animal life cycles depend on animals killing other animals for food. We're animals in the end. And animals in the wild experience stressful fates as prey etc.

I'm not advocating harm to any animal. I think we need to be mindful of animal welfare, create lives for livestock that is humane etc etc. Give animals good comfortable lives. This requires overhauling the industry, raising prices to match the value of the lives of meat, produce less, not having meat focussed diets.

But we are omnivores. We've evolved this way. If you look at ancestral lineages where we split from other primates, it's partly due to the nutrients an energy derived from meat and this has allowed our brains, sociality, and mobility to evolve. But we also evolved in conditions where these things weren't handed to us in a heaping platter.

Brain evolution has given us the innovation to now be in positions of choice. And being vegan, or veggie (I did this for years) etc are luxuries. But it isn't going to work for the average person. Which is why I'll always end up advocating for 'balance' because a large mass of people making small changes can have a larger net effect. Behaviourally, this is easier or the average person to manage.

When I cook at home I mostly buy meat/fish that's on offer/about to be thrown out (because I don't like the idea of waste) or from the butcher. I probably only have 1-2 meals that have meat in them out of the 27 meals in the week. Some things are nicer with meat in it -- e.g. a good bolognese, duck fat roasted potatoes are just better. I have milk in my coffee/porridge but mix it up with Almond/Oat.

The ancestral angle holds no water for me. Our ancestors probably literally flung shit at each other like chimps, murdered each other with impunity, and I except only a small fraction of children were conceived with both parties "consenting".

In modern times no one needs to eat meat or dairy to survive, so what our ancestors did is not relevant. You might as well say "our ancestors threw shit at other so I'm going to start doing that".

Of course, I'm not saying that everyone should become vegan. There are plenty of reasons not to do so, some better than others, some of which you also mentioned in your comment. Just pointing out that the fact that our ancestors did it doesn't mean anything at all when it comes to what we should be doing today.

Anyway, here's some general advice for everyone from a recent vegan:

• pinhead oats are great for the mornings. You boil some water, pour it over your oats, cover the bowl with a plate and in 10 minutes they're done. By far the best milk-less porridge I've been able to make (Scottish porridge is also really good but I can't make it). Where they really shine is camping - they're as easy to make as those little premade porridge pots, but have the advantage of being vegan, being cheaper, producing less waste and packing into your bag more efficiently. And since you're not cooking them (just boiling water) they use less gas than normal porridge. They are a little hard to find though - I bought a huge bag of like 5kg off Amazon and I've been eating through that for the last few months. And you need to add something to them really as they're a little bland by themselves. But I recommend them for anyone, not just people who want to their reduce dairy intake. (There is a name for that sort of porridge - pinhead oats covered with water - but I've forgotten it.)
  
• You can actually make oat milk fairly easily. You just blend oats and water and then strain it to remove the chunks. (Optionally I think you can leave it overnight before straining.) It's definitely way cheaper than buying oat milk but I've never tried it myself so I don't know whether it's as good. Interestingly this is why the pinhead oats method works so well - you effectively make oat milk but then eat it rather than straining it. So you get a nice creamy porridge with just water.
  
• Regarding tea and coffee, I've switched to espresso and green tea (and occasionally black tea). Not for everyone but I find buying in nut/oat milk a bit of a hassle. You know on a Sunday morning when you've got no milk in and desperately want a cup of tea but have to go to the shop first and it's raining outside? I thought "sod that, I'd rather force myself to enjoy milkless drinks". And again this is ideal for when you go camping, where tea and coffee have always been difficult for me. I just take my aeropress and a bag of coffee grounds. But if someone makes me a cup of tea with cow milk in it I still drink it, because it's by far the most delicious thing that I'm not allowed as a vegan. It was the hardest thing to give up. Also buying espressos in a cafe saves you a small amount money but more importantly earns you massive coffee snob points and makes you look like a 1970s hardman TdF cyclist.
  
• Bourbons are vegan. And who doesn't like bourbons? No one, that's who.
  
• For cooking the rest of the time, it's not as hard as you might think. You just need to have a different set of stuff in your kitchen cupboards and a different rota of standard meals. Obviously you have to learn a bunch of new recipes but that's fine. But in the spirit of the thread, I think gradually phasing your cooking from meat say 7 times a week to less often but higher quality is the way to go. One could try one new vegan recipe every week say, so eat meat 6 meals a week. By doing that you have a chance to learn the recipes, and as you learn more of them it becomes easier to increase the number of meat-free meals per week. Otherwise with a cliff-edge approach you're going to have to learn 6 recipes in a single week which is a bit much.
  
  

Soz for the essay all, just dump of relevant info out of my brain.

Not sure where you are based but I've had very good milk from this farm which is relatively local to me.

There is a name for that sort of porridge - pinhead oats covered with water - but I've forgotten it

The Scottish name for oats covered with hot or cold water is brose, dunno if that's what you're thinking of?

Cheers, I think that's the type of thing she's looking for (although the £13.50 delivery charge for a pint of milk may rule them out). May contact them to see if they have any leads.

Bourbons are fucking RANK. #justsayin

Yep, that's the one.

@Skülly bourbons are the second greatest biscuit of all time. Only second to the almighty chobnob

The Hobnob and choc chip Hobnob are both also vegan.

Fuck. I'd promised myself I wouldn't post in this idiotic thread with its moronic premise.

Shit, you've blown my mind. They don't have butter extract or whatever in? Most biscuits do

My main issue is the industrialisation of the meat industry. We have no empathy for the animals what's so ever, they are merely grown for benefit. And in consumerism free market that feels it's has a right to cheap meat that usually has always been luxury item even the poorest of people have a addiction to meat that is required in every meal.
I have started to replace alot of my meat with venison as bambi has probably has a free existance and shot by a marksmen accurately.
Once a week is more then enough protein and I've tried to replace it with veg which I believe is much more historically consistent with human existance.
We have urges to consume protein and carbs when they were in inconstant supply for survival. That isn't the case no and so we should reign and control those urges. That is what make human superior to other animals that we can control our urges.
I do relapse and gorge on shit when pissed or annoyed.

I agree that historical or evolutionary precedent is no reason to either support or reject something. Unfortunately, everyone's life will have some impact on animals. We destroy their habitats when we build our homes, roads, shops, and factories that make the shit we buy. When we farm crops we displace or kill them to maximise yield. I'm not convinced that killing animals for food is fundamentally different from killing animals for any of the reasons above. We don't need to eat meat, but then we don't need to play golf or buy iphones (etc. etc.) either, both of which will have quite some impact on animals and their environment.

It's not unreasonable to argue that we shouldn't bring animals into the world just for the purposes of killing them later, but when we do so we make a tacit contract with the animal that we will provide it with a life that is as natural, comfortable and safe as possible and a quick stress-free death at the end of it. As a result many domesticated animals live much happier lives than their wild cousins.

I disagree ancestral and evolutionary factor are very strong... It's our genetics that determine our urges and that what a cravings are.
Remember that meat and carbs would have been seasonal and we have been hardwired to gorge on such things when they are in plentiful supply to benefit us during difficult times.
The way we put on fat for example is very different from area to area... the indian subcontinent for example historically had a famine/draught every 7 years or so. This visceral fat that would have been utilised during this time is now the cause of high rates of diabetes and heart disease much more then the wider population. The same can be said of Arabs that have replaced sheep/goat herding and fishing with wafting around airconditioned shopping malls will fast food and desert bars. Kuwait has a population that one third diabetics.

We need to seriously assess our domestic pets... firstly the lack of genetic diversity has caused horrendous medical issues and often we have no choice but to put them down eventually.
We've got to a stage were breeds such as bulldog can't even mate with each other without human intervention because we have breed certain feature that we required or preferred. Quite strange.
Inbreeding is also a problem with humans too, to less of a degree.
I doubt that domestic pet have happier lives them wild ones... possibly less stressful tho.

I was agreeing with @frankenbike's point that "we evolved to eat meat" is not a justification for continuing to eat meat, since we can now do without it. What we crave is not relevant from a moral standpoint. I'm not sure what the relevance of the rest of your first post is from that perspective either. Unhealthy diets are unhealthy, obviously.

I agree with you about inbreeding in pets. That shit is fucked up. It's not relevant to responsible meat-eating though. I was referring to livestock, with the implicit caveats that have been made throughout this thread regarding animal welfare and intensive rearing.

We can survive without meat that is perfectly clear. However studies have shown this is far from ideal. Vit b12 and iron are 2 things that vegetarians are more likely to be short of.
However we have ask our selves how we survived the ice age? This would only have been possible with meat.
But in 1st world and others too after the industrialisation on meat production excessive meat is the real killer now. Especially amongst those buying massive amount of cheap meat such as fast food and processed products.

We must resist our craving and reduce meat consumption for the survival of our planet. That enough of reason. Cows are one the leading producers of greenhouse gases. Grazing on lands that were often rainforests and the lungs of the planet.
A small amount meat once a week is more then enough. That is reality of our dietary requirements. As a by product we will them.be able to be much more ethical in our treatment of animals.

I'm not sure why you're replying to me.

Because I disagree with you on certain points. What's is the point of internet and lfgss if not to argue.... Especially on a Friday evening.

We destroy their habitats when we build our homes, roads, shops, and factories that make the shit we buy.

This is obviously a problem and not ideal.

But to me it is on a completely different scale to the endless cycle of abuse we inflict upon farm animals.

So many generations confined to the fate that we've set for them... I think it's sad. Especially as we're in a country that is privileged enough to offer an alternative, as has already been mentioned.

that's sort of my sentiments anyway.

Apologies for the ramble.

I agree completely... but the fact is that we don't have to give up dairy or meat completely we just need to be ethical and sustainable. It actually healthier to have meat in our diet but not in the huge quantities alot of people eat it.
Unfortunately we've had a few generations of people that have had plentiful and cheap dairy and meat amd now feel it's normal despite the medical evidence to the contry, causing the destruction of the planet and our morals with regards to animal welfare.
Unfortunately in the consumeristic world price is king... cheap and plentifil dominates.

I hope this doesn't seem like I'm picking on you, or trying to start an argument in general, you just happen to have made a recent post that sums up a lot of the problems I have with this thread. A fair few people in here seem to agree that the meat and dairy industry as a whole are problematic and unnecessary but are, for some reason, unwilling to cut the products of these industries out completely. The idea that reducing the amount of cruelty being inflicted upon an animal by buying meat and dairy from animals that have potentially lived a better life, when there is an option to cut out this cruelty altogether also doesn't sit right with me either. I also can't really get on board with the idea that a little bit of meat and dairy is necessary for a healthy diet. We're fortunate enough to live in a part of the world where there are plenty of ways to live a perfectly healthy lifestyle, without consuming any animal products. Again, just my thoughts, I'm not trying to start an argument, I just find a lot of the views expressed in this thread a bit at odds with the idea of eating responsibly and ethically that people are clearly concerned about. The fact that people are thinking more about where their food comes from is great, it just doesn't go far enough in my eyes. #anotherpreachyvegan