US Politics

Trump tweeting about General Pershing after Barcelona. Fucking hell he's unhinged.

Wise choice. Stay away, it's a cesspit.

A single forum thread where much of the users appear to be against the guy is probably a bad place for gaining the whole picture. Sure, there are a million reasons to think the guy's an awful person, and absolutely a bad leader - which I think he is - but some balance is needed and I rarely tend to see the left's often questionable and extreme actions discussed and held to account in establishment media, or even here, as much as I do the right's. That is a good point you make when put into that context, but the moment one side resorts to the sorts of things they denigrate their opponent for, on anyone, they lose the moral high ground.

Also a good point, you reminded me of that image. Though, to be fair, the Medusa/Perseus mock-up didn't have Hillary's head covered in 'blood'...

yeah. "the left" aren't marching through the streets waving swastikas threatening to bring back the holocaust and driving cars into groups of protesters.

try spending some time around actual fascists. the cunts need to be shut down. just like the last lot.

they lose the moral high ground.

Nope. Never got that phrase/idea.

It is not just "the left" who oppose Trump, and they are not a unified, agreed whole who are responsible for each others words or actions, any more than "the right". I don't think those terms really apply to the current social and political situation in the US anyway.

Looking for balance by comparing "hate" is a false equivalence. Some threats are metaphorical (in crosshairs etc), some mean it literally, it's not always obvious. But fundamentally, people being mean or nasty or even wishing Trump were dead doesn't diminish or affect the rightness of opposing an invigorated white supremacist movement. It's irrelevant. Non-metaphorical death threats by a group of people against another group of people, millions of people.

I'm guessing/hoping that you aren't really trying to compare those two things, and you're meaning to show that political left can be just as "mean" as political right. Shrug. I wish Twitter death threats against figureheads were all that were needed to weigh up who is nice and who isn't. But I think there's something more important going on, and Trump is on the wrong side.

Can you post that "compromise?" cartoon again?

Who knew that false equivalence was so prevalent?

Trying to explain this in a car forum yesterday - ended up with the following:

Please group two of these three things, based on degree of similarity:

1. Nazis
   
2. Protestors, opposing the Nazis
   
3. British soldiers who fought the Nazis
   
   

The people on the forum were grouping 1 with 3.

that doesn't make any sense, unless the car forum you've been cheating on us with is full of illiterates. or nazis.

it's a porsche forum isn't it?

Okay I'm a bit more awake.

I think your post was mistimed.

I think what you are saying is "left can be mean and hateful too", which in the context of the left complaining about how mean the right are when it comes to death threats / personal hate against Clinton or Obama, sure, those things are more or less equivalent. Neither side has "moral high ground" and I still feel like that kind of hate is irrelevant to whatever the actual political issues are.

Unfortunately in current context, it can appear that what you are saying is "the left can be mean and hateful too, therefore those who oppose literal white supremacy immediately lose their moral high ground". I don't think that can be what you mean.

Opposing white supremacy is not a left/right issue.

Volkswagen?

The two chaps with whom I am having the discussion are:

• A retired Taxi driver (London, Black Cab), who believes that Robert E Lee was "misunderstood"
  
• A light-machine shop operator from Lancashire who voted for Brexit
  
  

So they're both massive racists, although I think there is a gap in Mens Rea between the two of them.

Who knew that massive racist=Nazi sympathiser.

They both seem very upset to be called on this, however.

This can only be PH although I don't believe they would ever be against British soldiers.

So they're both massive racists

Harsh. Not all misunderstanders of history, cab drivers, machinists etc.

Hi, hi. Not so fun anymore when the insinuating questions are aimed at yourself is it? My main argument with you is that the whole business of "why hasn't X come forward and condemned Y yet?" is a shit of kind rhetoric, almost always used to cast aspersions rather than raise a civilised debate. To your credit you did say "it's a genuine question", but I don't buy it.

As far as this thread is concerned we did have this muppet a while back. I reported him in the moderators thread, hoping to have him banned. @velocio challenged him, suggesting he reconsider, but didn't ban. In hindsight I think we should have reacted a bit more harshly, but then there is the whole thing of not feeding a troll.
I don't recall anyone linking to any death threat tweets, and if I remember correctly the capitation photo was condemned mildly. (But perhaps I am confusing this with another forum.) Personally, I am in split minds about Snoop Dogg shooting a Trump themed clown, as to me it's a clown that reminds you of Trump, not Trump himself. Similar to how Ali G, when he quoted Snoop Dogg lyrics, was a clown taking the piss out of Snoop's misogyny, but not (as some suggested) a straight up racist caricature.

Lastly, as much as I hate to agree with you on anything, I share your concern about JK Rowling being elevated to some kind of sage. My parents generation reached for Focuault and Baudrillard when sorting out the problems of their day, we are excitedly waiting for the next 144 character soundbite from a children's book writer.

Ok, I think he's gone too far now.

http://www.bicycling.com/news/trump-removes-white-house-bikeshare-station

Gosh, I didn't realise I was a muppet and should be summarily banned for posting a crap joke when everyone was despondent. A bit of a zealous reaction, I think. Anyway, glad to know you're keeping an eye on things. I'll stick to the classifieds and vintage and leave the politics to people who know better.

Can you link to the thread? (If it can be viewed not logged in)
Looks fun

The monster

The two chaps with whom I am having the discussion are:

A retired Taxi driver (London, Black Cab), who believes that Robert E Lee was "misunderstood"
A light-machine shop operator from Lancashire who voted for Brexit

So they're both massive racists, although I think there is a gap in Mens Rea between the two of them.

Are we accepting that anyone who voted for Brexit is a "massive racist"?

No looks like the formula is:

Blue collar, from up north, Brexit voter = Racist

Black Cab driver, Robert E Lee glorifier = Racist

Given that Brexit was mentioned only in one and I'm guessing that there was a lot more material to go on from their posts then no, we are not acccepting that and in fact it hasn't been suggested.

No, I think Dammit's stereotypes are showing...

I'll enter into the discussion a post from the machine shop chap "I get called racist all the time, means nothing".

I think what you are saying is "left can be mean and hateful too", which in the context of the left complaining about how mean the right are when it comes to death threats / personal hate against Clinton or Obama, sure, those things are more or less equivalent. Neither side has "moral high ground" and I still feel like that kind of hate is irrelevant to whatever the actual political issues are.

This. My post was about the linking of the CNN train image here and whether anybody here sees, shares, discusses or even distances themselves from any of the extreme examples provided when it's aimed at Trump, at Trump's supporters. If anyone can point me quite to where I legitimised white supremacy and the mowing down of people protesting against Nazis, racists and fascists by some far-right cunt in a Dodge, then I'll wait.

Once again, I said - and still think - the cartoon was both in bad taste and appallingly timed. Perhaps my post was badly timed too, however, it's spectacular that questioning if people feel the same anger towards those who write about and symbolise killing the guy that they do when he Tweets about 'taking down' news corporations could suddenly align me with white supremacy...

I don't think that can be what you mean.
...and you would be correct.

Opposing white supremacy is not a left/right issue.
This.

I'll take your word that they're massive racists, but not because of occupation, understanding of history or voting history. Which I think is kind of inferred by your post.