EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

Yep,
having lived near Northolt Aerodrome,
base for the Polish Air Force throughout WW2,
for >50 years,
you have to be pretty mean-minded to deny Poles access to the UK,
after they escaped the USSR and joined the EU.

This isn't the case. If they try to play UKIP at their game they can't win. Strategically, as soon as they start trying to define a 'sensible' policy, that's it.

More, if they don't defend free movement of labour, frankly, what's the point? It's a key ideological principle. If you think that the reason the left in the west has been on the back foot for the past 30 years is immigration, that's an incredibly narrow reading of history. And that's being charitable.

30 years? Who said 30 years?

Like I said, charitable.

This rise of the right you're talking about. You think that's something that's happened in the last 5 years? Or what's your timescale?

There's a chain of thought in left politics that is anti-nationalism, arguing that nationalities are social constructs that divide people in a way that power structures exploit.

In abstract, it's true IMHO. But it's an abstraction that holds very little attraction to many people in democratic societies who feel the bonds of kith and kin more keenly. It does appeal to people like me who are part of a globalised white collar class who interact with people like me from all over the world. Hell, I'm the fruit of this interaction - I'm half English, half Puerto Rican. So I have a strong affinity to the worldview.

But white collar classes who have benefited from globalisation have not done enough to look after the blue collar class that has been most hurt by globalisation - the closures of the mines and factories etc etc because of wage competition from places like China where wages and rights are negligible. Jobs and skills that are very geographically and historically situated and that can't easily be transferred into other professions. My dad, who moved from blue to white collar over the course of his career, is now of the view that people should 'get on their bikes' as the phrase once was - but it's hard to see how that's possible for, for example, a huge community of ex-miners who have homes and families and friends in the same place and can't sell their house because they don't own it or nobody will buy it and so can't just up sticks and move to where the jobs are. Most of human history, people stay put and economy happens to them - the massive urbanisation that comes with industrialisation is anomolous in that regard, and de-industrialisation doesn't produce the same economic/geographic pull because it's harder to train people with very specific technical labour-heavy skills to become mobile knowledge workers. Their kids can make that shift - a chunk of my northern friends are people who are the kids of parents who couldn't retrain - but you're left with an underclass of those who aren't malleable enough to adapt to the global capitalist system. And some of them have children who don't find a way to break out of this, not through lack of innate ability but because they don't have the opportunity or, because of their immediate context, they can't see that there is a way out.

Fundamentally I think what we have is a failure of education, not just for school-age people but also for those who are older. Some of that is down to the fact we treat education with a certain amount of disdain - 'those who can't, teach' and all that shit - and we don't see it as an investment in our future and in the vitality of our society.

In that context, it's very easy to construct a narrative for the left-behind that blames everything on the fact that there are immigrants in work. It's not a zero-sum game necessarily - but for example, in the construction industry it's cheaper to hire from the EU than to train locally. We could have put in place rules favouring training locals over hiring immigrants - like the requirement, permissible under EU rules, that all immigrants have some cash and a degree. But we didn't - and I think that part of the reason New Labour didn't is because they bought into the anti-nationalism, 'no borders, no states, no wars!' school of abstract left thinking of many of their middle class, career politician members - people who are a bit older than me but aren't very different in background.

That, to me, is where this has all gone awry. And it's why so much of the discourse feels socialist and nationalist at be same time. People who voted Labour feel like they've not been looked after, but yet immigrants are (they think) thriving. They want solidarity against unscrupulous employers. But they also want solidarity against the depredations of globalisation.

Of course, I'm sure you all know as well as me what we're scared of when you put socialism and nationalism too close to each other.

/drunken ramble

I wish I could drunken ramble with clarity like that.

No it's not about regret it's about understanding why leavers voted this way due to the monumental consequences. Economy goes to shit, human rights (May ain't a fan...), NI...It's about more to me than having a little hassle.

I'm in an industry with shortages.

On immigration, the fact people rip each other apart is 90% propaganda and the government letting it happen.

And globalisation which is causing lowering wages in the West, but you can't out China back in the box.

It's good for services but those jobs can be crap (hi 0 hours contracts?) and brexit won't restore manufacturing I think. The UK had near 40 years but it went for financial services.

Oh and a lot of trump voters weren't poor.

Liverpool voted in the don't sell the Scum there. Unions used to be strong and offer education, Thatcher broke them.

Of course you a D I know that, so why is Westminster so chummy with that oxygen thief Murdoch? The press played a big role here.

Thought the same thing.

I was six when it wound up so not really.

What's your point, were they well known for their carbon efficient delivery network? ;)

Those chimneys would never be allowed under the EU Air Quality Directive.

Oh wait.

Yeah thats not how it works in Austria, but there are roadblocks for non Austrian EU citizens

and the labour market test (Arbeitsmarktprüfung) shows that there is no equally qualified worker registered as a jobseeker with the Public Employment Service (AMS) available for the job.

This is a thing

Yeah I kind of forgot it was 2017. I would say things went bad when Tony Blair was voted into power. So I guess 20, but you are probably right.

I stupidly believe that the economy will bounce back. Sometimes you have to break things and then rebuild them. I think a lot of British people would like to see the other side of the coin.

As for human rights, if you could give me an example of your concerns?

I wasn't much older. But I remember their cars. And how inefficient they were.
But that might have been no regulations. Oh I'm tying zmyself up here.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/13/eu-negotiator-wants-special-deal-over-access-to-city-post-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

^ we have a ton of bargaining power

Of course, I'm sure you all know as well as me what we're scared of when you put socialism and nationalism too close to each other.

are you suggesting the you know whozis were socialist?

/hangoveroclock

We don't. We have a few cards to play, but the EU is the house and the house never loses.

^ we have a ton of bargaining power

LOL

I was just being hoping it was a reference to socialism in one country.

Bargaining power? We're on a fucking island!

Which is why we are leaving the casino.

That island houses the financial capital of Europe.

On that note... http://www.xyz.net.au/white-nationalism-defeated-national-socialism/

(Shared on my fave nutjob UKIPS facebook group)

British Leyland were partly a construct of Labour's industrial policy under Tony Benn*, they were a bit of a mess. But due to the tariffs on imported cars you didn't see many BMWs, Mercedes, Alfas around, so they remained the car of choice through the 70s.

WTO tariffs on cars are 10% so I would've thought that UK produced cars will become more popular again, though I guess most people will be willing to pay thousands to the government just to own an Audi, BMW etc.

• Do young people know who Tony Benn was? He would've been in the brexit camp.