EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

I am Scottish.

I'm not. But having lived in Scotland for 13 years, this tolerance is a myth. I've been beaten up and threatened repeatedly because I was English. To be fair, I've also made lifelong friends and been made very welcome by most, but there is a minority who show no signs of tolerance, just like anywhere else.

In my opinion MP's should be accountable for their opinions. If I vote in a candidate based on their parties policies I'd expect that MP to uphold that parties line. Otherwise I'd just vote for the 'independent' candidate. Who isn't tied into party policy.

Also most of us have a clause in our working contracts that say you're not publically allowed to slate your boss or your company and how they do things. Are MP's any different?

@andyp - just punch them in the face. Wherever you go there's always gonna be a couple of cunts. Though as a brown person I've found Scotland tolerant in a way that England very much isn't. Though everyone will have had different experiences and your experiences are just as valid and important as mine.

I've had the odd bit of anti English racism leveled at me though it makes me laugh. The 'You were born in England so that makes you English'

Perhaps those types of Scots don't understand the connotation of privilidge. If you're white and you're born in England you're English. If you're not white and born in England you should still fuck off home.

Seriously... Don't worry it's all EU bullying.

This article gets to the heart of the matter.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/chris-johns-theresa-may-continues-to-lie-about-brexit-1.2941575

A minority.

Exactly. As a whole however, which is what I assume we're discussing - the general feeling of the country - is the opposite to England. It's inclusive and outward looking.

Politically and socially, it's moving away from the insularity of little England and that is the crux of the matter and the driving force behind independence. It;s not being driven by the SNP or by NS, it's being driven by a groundswell of people who want a better, fairer society for everyone that lives there regardless of where they're from.

This idea that Scottish (civic) nationalism is the same as English/British nationalism is an idea that needs to be put to bed - by far, the biggest problem in Scotland and the most intolerant and violent are the British nationalists/loyalists.

wasn't it shitwitted unionists that kicked off the last time there was a referendum in scotchland, land of eggs?

What really annoys the hell out of me is that the 38degrees exit polls and other polls show YES there are differences, but people want a fairer society. Then do exactly the opposite when it comes to voting.

And a mass strike is impossible w/o civil unrest due to the 48/52 split...

http://allofusfirst.org/the-key-ideas/

They had a riot when they 'won.'

exactly.

Complete with Nazi salutes of course.

Nazi salute = hallmark of English nationalism.

And British nationalism.

'British' nationalism is English nationalism no?

How are they do they differ? What are the defining characteristics that separate them?

Nationalism is all the same. It's based on the idea that one country is more special than the rest, which is clearly rubbish. It is characterised by a belief that your country is superior to others. It imagines shared communal identification and characteristics which don't really exist.

This is what we're constantly hearing from the SNP, often codified as criticism of Westminster because it's legitimate to criticise a parliament but not a country or its culture. It's what we're also hearing from you @bazschmaz in your lazy, tired caricatures, your crass generalisations about English people.

People are people, all over the world. Yes, different countries have different values and cultures, but our common humanity unites us.

The philosopher A.C. Grayling said that nations were artificial constructs, "their boundaries drawn in the blood of past wars". Orwell said it was "power-hunger tempered by self-deception." Einstein famously said "Nationalism is an infantile disease. ... It is the measles of mankind."

Nationalism is inherently divisive. It highlights perceived differences between people. It is regressive bollocks. However you want to dress it up.

We are just not there yet where we can let go of nationalism based on countries.
Unfortunately. But it's a whole practical problem with resource allocation, economy, having a territory, regulations...even with countries we can do a lot (fairer trade, fairer immigration, fairer wealth allocation...]

Is celebrating everyone that wants to be in a country cos they like it, and sharing/celebrating not at least better than pure "you are not born here or you have the wrong cultural flavour/skin colour AND my place is superior so feck off nationalism?" (which is brewing in many EU countries atm... blegh)

Starting wars against others cos nationalism or being proud of being born somewhere yeah, er, wot? Or "citizens of nowhere" ballix?

I apologise if I've made lazy, crass, tired generalistions. I'm happy to have them pointed out. It'll help me stop making them again.

Though there is a significant difference in my eyes between ethnic nationalism and civic nationalism. I've seen it first hand both where I grew up ( London/South East) and where I've been for the last 10 years nearly. (Edinburgh).

I'm happy to be corrected or pointed in the right direction to additional resource to learn more.

Except when it's civic nationalism.

You seem to have real trouble with the concept but it's the reality.

I wouldn't waste your time with Fox tbh-he has a sister somewhere in Scotland so thinks he's the resident expert on all things Scottish Nationalism because of a few anecdotes.

Nationalism is reflected in the existence of well, Nations, of which there are many and Scotland already is one, and has been for some 1500 years. Its political Union with Great Britain is proving to be to the disadvantage of its residents, so they're naturally questioning why being in that Union should be continued when it doesn't reflect their political or social ecology and has economically ensured it is kept in a state of dependency.

It doesn't come down to racism or dislike of 'the English'; it's about the desire to be self-determined and to be able to say things like 'we think the EU is a good thing, we still want to be members' and have that respected, or, 'Tories are greedy exploitative cunts, lets not have them treat us like a weekend Grouse-moor for them and their buddies to saunter to and fro whilst stymieing any regional development on that land'.

Too complicated for some to comprehend, obviously, but then I'm probably speaking out of turn and should return to my traditional Colonial place downstairs with the servants.

Yes, generally but Scotland has British nationalists and England has English/British nationalists I suppose.

They are the same but it's just a way of differentiating them in Scotland especially as Scottish nationalists are civic nationalists and a have a totally different outlook and set of core beliefs. People would try and have you believe otherwise but that's simply not the case.

Back in your box peasant or I'll set the hounds on you!

I don't necessarily agree with this guy, but it's an interesting take on the nationalism question

Brexit is the result of an English delusion, a crisis of identity resulting from a failure to come to terms with the loss of empire and the end of its own exceptionalism, argues Cambridge University professor Nicholas Boyle

I got as far as him describing Wales as an appendage. Burn his holiday home down, and his normal home as well.

Nationalism is inherently divisive.

Depends how you define nationalism and what you define as being nationalism, as I'm sure Wittgenstein would have been happy to point out had he been a LFGSSer.