EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

That is there fault.

Right.

I didn't see Labour MPs strongly campaigning for Brexit, unlike half of the Conservative MPs.

Sure, I didn't see the Labour leadership campaigning viably for Remain, but the grass roots of Labour and every other party I saw quite united in Remain.

Fault, if it is to be apportioned, lies squarely with the Leave camp of the Conservatives.

I've hedged my bets though, just like religion I've learned it's best to be a member of every political party. This way I'm always on the winning side and will avoid whatever purgatory exists for those with no faith.

It's more complicated than that though. I assume what he's referring to is the disillusionment of the traditional, working class, labour voters with the party and the way they've been poached by the far right. If you look at a lot of the voters that voted out then that's where they're located.

It's not a recent thing, and certainly didn't start with Corbyn (although he may have accelerated it).

It's a step remove from the active Brexit campaigning but I would say it had an impact.

I didn't see Labour MPs strongly campaigning for Brexit, unlike half of the Conservative MPs.

Sure, I didn't see the Labour leadership campaigning viably for Remain

Take a look at the New Statesman article I posted a couple pages back. Absence of evidence is not evidence for something.

Absence of evidence is not evidence for something.

Yes, and correlation does not equal causation.

But eventually reason breaks down if reason isn't accepted as a response to anything at all.

One just ends up in a metaphysical circle jerk, it may be satisfying but it doesn't achieve a great deal.

I think you've misunderstood my post. There was a study conduced by the New Statesmen which looked at referendum coverage leading up to the vote (a link to which I posted earlier today). It shows that the Tories were disproportionately covered despite heavy campaigning by Labour (and even Corbyn!). Their point is that this prevented perspectives from the Left to be made widely known to potential voters, and instead, voters made decisions based on Tory arguments which one may understand traditional Labour supporters having issues with. However, it also means that the general sense that they/he didn't campaign (and thus was essentially supporting Leave) is not true but a impression from skewed reporting.

That is, my post was not meant as an argument or anything. I was just drawing your attention to this before we got into another "Labour/Corbyn should have campaigned more!" argument.

It's not a recent thing, and certainly didn't start with Corbyn (although he may have accelerated it).

I agree that it's neither recent, nor started with our lord and saviour JC, but is there any reason why you think he would have accelerated disillusionment amongst the working classes?

There have been polls (I think on here somewhere) showing Labour's approval rating amongst traditional working class dropping at a greater rate since JC came in.

I guess it's arguable whether a lower approval rating does signify disillusionment.

#inb4schick

Ah, I get where you're coming from. And yeah I'd say they are different things. Disillusionment is a malaise which I think one can safely put at the feet of Blair and Brown.

So why do you think JC didn't campaign?

Yet more treason from the Torygraph;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/11/did-we-reclaim-sovereignty-from-brussels-only-to-ignore-parliame/

'silence'

They need to distract from the fact that all this talk of a hard Brexit has trashed the pound, which Express readers will begin to notice soon.

Have you noticed how overnight Government sources have said that we might still contribute to the EU budget and remain part of the customs union? Damage limitation time as the sabre rattling rhetoric of the Tory conference has spooked the business world and the markets.

What, Will Young quits strictly!!!!!!

meanwhile, on the letters page. in 2016:

Get out, before it's too late...

and go where? this is the state of the world.

Canada, obvs...

Let's all move to Montreal.

Come to the middle east, democracy is overrated.

Now we're talking...

In fairness, not all of the UK is now suddenly full of assholes like this. Their volume just got cranked up by 11.

France/Netherlands have sort of house of lords that is fully voted in (called the Assembly) along with Belgium. NL/BE also have coalition governments, in France the Assembly constrains the government.

But we do have idiots too in NL, sorry...Wilders has quite a few seats. I am not sure the perfect democracy exists atm. But the general tone of conversation in the UK the past few months is shocking.