This morning's commute and other commuting stories

got to the stockwell tube junction this morning to standstill despite green light on the cycle lane. turns out 3 cyclists had somehow collided with one another in a bizarre pile-up, the last guy had even managed to get his brake caliper tangled in the middle guys rear spokes. like the human centipede..

..but with bikes

Can't unfortunately, it's Norths tonight.

I'm sorry to hear that, sounds miserable.

Dutch roundabouts are great fun, sometimes you have right of way crossing the exit roads, sometimes not and cars/cycles exiting have.

The triangular give way markings (haaidetanden or shark's teeth) are the hint to watch.

Note that bar in Amsterdam where I nearly saw two people get flattened (one time the traffic light was out, the other time a ped went through red) driving tends to be rather calm.

Thanks for this btw.

Wins disagreement with Oliver in a single post. Have that, internets.

Hold your horses, I'm not sure you did.

I'm a bit confused as to what the give way markings are for on the leg of the junction. I assume it is just to more clearly indicate to traffic that they are actually approaching a junction despite the road appearing to go straight on. Surely it doesn't effect the way the roundabout operates?

Note that bar in Amsterdam

You'll have to be more specific about which bar it was, there are hundreds.

where I nearly saw two people get lattened

Was it a coffee shop?

Thanks for this btw.

You're very welcome.

Ummm, but the markings (single, white, dashed line) that the driver crossed to enter the roundabout are still classified as give way markings and indicate that they should give way to traffic already circulating the roundabout (which can be to their left). I don't think that there is any substantial regulatory difference between the two forms. The double give way line is often used to provide visual reinforcement where the need to cede priority may be confused by sightlines, layout, historic use etc.

Surely it doesn't affect the way the roundabout operates?

No stopping me today.

I think you'll find that unless you paid road tax to be on that particular roundabout, the driver had priority.

Also something about insurance.

And maybe helmets.

I'm a bit confused as to what the give way markings are for on the leg of the junction. I assume it is just to more clearly indicate to traffic that they are actually approaching a junction despite the road appearing to go straight on. Surely it doesn't affect the way the roundabout operates?

In theory, no, but in practice it does, as people are used to at best slow down slightly at roundabout give-way markings when they can't see conflicting traffic, whereas they are used to slowing down more at double-line give-way markings. It's confusing, as I said above, and strictly speaking such markings should have no place at a roundabout and are caused by the fact that quite often driver behaviour at roundabouts doesn't confirm the theories about it.

Second full day back at work after 6 weeks off. I hate the tube again and remember why I'd rather cycle rain hail or shine to get to work. Time to try and get my arm to start working a bit better so i can get back on my bike!

if you're carrying that much illumination and video recording equipment, there's fear in your heart...

Fear is mostly in the arse, hence shitting oneself.

In theory, no, but in practice it does, as people are used to at best slow down slightly at roundabout give-way markings when they can't see conflicting traffic, whereas they are used to slowing down more at double-line give-way markings.

Yes, this would be my understanding of it too, that it is re-enforce the rules rather that alter them.

The highway code wording of roundabouts is simplified to the point that it is arguably wrong. On mini-roundabouts in particular the priority from the right is assumed not just by those who are on the junction or even at the give way line, but also from much further up the road.

From what I understand of @Sharkstar's incident, he was already on the roundabout before the car had reached the give way line which gives him priority, albeit a dangerous priority to insist upon.

I am in a similar sitch. But I'm not working til next week, thankfully! Just had an elbow op and hoping I'll have the strength to ride to my new contract every day from the off.

As regards the @Sharkstar incident, sorry to hear you got into a proper slanging over what you might call a minor disagreement. It can be really upsetting to be assaulted in this way. IME suburban riders do drive with less tolerance than modern inner London drivers in the main.

It should be added that whatever rules, or right and wrongs, in cases where priority is marginal, ALL motor drivers should err on the side of caution around non-motorised travellers. 'Sail before steam' is a nice sea-going metaphor that MUST become the norm here as it is in NL and DK.

Bless you all out there, whether on a horse or skateboard or handbike or whatever ... approaching every interaction with a smile and a wave, and giving loud pre-emptive thanks with a kind of chilled-out assertiveness, is really worth trying if you haven't yet.

albeit a dangerous priority to insist upon

Word up

Drinks coffee and leaves :P

Note that, bar in Amsterdam, ... ? ;)

Even with school holidays on its still not an enjoyable way to get to work. I can't understand how so many people will put up with it! Heal up fast mate!

Ta. Absolutely! Got two or three buses lately and I find it SO frustrating.

I assume he was heading towards the right position for what he wanted to do. It doesn't look like that entrance to the roundabout has particularly clear lane markings. In any case, I wasn't expecting him to turn left, but to follow me to the far exit, or overtake me if he chose to do so. Cars have no difficulty overtaking cyclists on the stretch of road leading up to the roundabout.

I didn't get close to colliding. I had lots of space on my left to move in to, which I did as he overtook. I was watching his progress as he entered the junction. I assumed that if he entered the junction behind me he would keep on the inside lane and he did. He didn't need to stop the car as he had almost passed me and was pointing towards the exit.

Ummm, but the markings (single, white, dashed line) that the driver crossed to enter the roundabout are still classified as give way markings and indicate that they should give way to traffic already circulating the roundabout (which can be to their left). I don't think that there is any substantial regulatory difference between the two forms. The double give way line is often used to provide visual reinforcement where the need to cede priority may be confused by sightlines, layout, historic use etc.

Well, there is a little bit of a difference, although I don't know if it's relevant in this case (IANAL). The TSRGD state the following about double-line give way markings:

Give way marking – diagram 1003A

1. The requirements conveyed to vehicular traffic on roads by the road marking at item 3 of the table in Part 6 of this Schedule are—48820/08/2015
   (a) except as provided in paragraphs (b) to (d), that no vehicle may proceed past the transverse line which is the nearer to the major road into that road in a
   manner or at a time likely to endanger the driver of, or any passenger in, a vehicle on the major road or to cause the driver of such a vehicle to change its
   speed or course in order to avoid an accident;
   

This is considerably stricter and better-defined than the provision for roundabout entry markings, which merely read:

Diagram 1003.3
Vehicular traffic approaching a roundabout with a small central island or approaching a junction indicated by the marking shown in item 5 of this table [for a mini-roundabout, my addition] should give way at, or immediately beyond, the line to traffic circulating on the carriageway of the roundabout

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/455160/TSRGD-august-2015-regulations.pdf

Obviously, the following is all arguable, and would probably be argued about at great length in court if it was not a trivial case like the present one (although I don't want to say that the upset caused to the driver is trivial, I just mean the fact that it was a minor incident without physical personal injury or damage). One difference is that the double-line give-way markings demarcate a major from a minor road at that point, i.e. Victoria Road-Balcombe Road south effectively becomes a major road and Balcombe Road north a minor road.

Someone coming from the north therefore has to observe 'that no vehicle may proceed past the transverse line which is the nearer to the major road into that road in a manner or at a time likely to endanger the driver of, or any passenger in, a vehicle on the major road or to cause the driver of such a vehicle to change its speed or course in order to avoid an accident'. By contrast, a driver approaching diagram 1003.3 where marked is actually at liberty to overshoot the markings in giving way. There's no indication that the same standard as for 1003A applies there.

This means (I think, but lawyers should please correct me) that Sharkstar should not have proceeded past diagram 1003A in the manner that he did, as it seems to me both Victoria Road, where the driver was coming from, and the circulatory carriageway in the roundabout effectively count as two parts of the same major road, and Sharkstar's riding does seem to have affected the driver's ability to proceed in something like the manner specified to be avoided in the TSRGD. By contrast, the driver was OK to proceed past diagram 1003.3 in this case, although he should then have given way to Sharkstar, who, irrespective of perhaps having ridden through diagram 1003A too fast at that point, was already in the circulatory carriageway.

I know that it's absurd to say that on the one hand Sharkstar shouldn't have impeded the driver's driving here and on the other hand the driver should then have given way to him. Perhaps it's nonsense, but it's the only way I can make some sense of the mixing here of two quite different approaches to highway design, with one design feature, the roundabout, incompatible (in my opinion) with the major/minor road design of a priority junction.

I've seen plenty of cases where engineers were looking to fix something in a traffic scheme that didn't work and then came up with 'solutions' like that. Many places have layers and layers of emendations in the schemes there. Generally, it's better to start again from scratch in such cases.

Apologies for all the length of these posts about a trivial thing, but it's the principles that interest me a lot here.

a real champion of texting and driving spotted on today's commute.

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