FS: Europe...

Sort your lives out. IN!

Thunder woke you up too then?

I'll split. You take the rain...

Always. There are sweet deals to be had on shitty weather. Braking surface untouched...

#rep.

"I wan't my country back" What does that even mean?

it means no to TTIP
unless you like TTIP

I have no love for it, but TTIP Doesn't go far enough for Gove and his Pals. For them this is about reshaping the country to bring about right wing Tory/ UKIP fantasies of ye olde Engerlaand to life.

That fantasy also involves corps & business doing as they please, the rich paying even less taxes than now and a race to the bottom wages/ labour rights wise oh and nevermind what'll happen to the environment etc etc

yes i get that but i am not voting, i cannot decide. I like the idea of a US of Europe. BUT not the current non-democratic, corrupt EU.

While the 'outies' have the likes of Gove they also have a lot on the left too e.g. Tony Benn was very anti-EU. The arguments on both sides are more finely balanced than many think I suspect.

the young seem like automatons voting for the EU - well it is 'modern' to them. But house prices will actually FALL if we leave & wages go up at the bottom.

Neither result will be a happy one.

Reform is what is required really. But that is not what is on offer.

Careful what you wish for is my advice. They are all evil selfish xxxxxxxxxers.

Reform is what is required really.

How will we reform it if we leave?

nobody's pretending the EU is perfect... staying in is the only way we can help improve it. the easy road is not always the right road n all that. So fucking IN

history is not on your side is it? yours has been the oft made refrain of the remain group over 40 + years. And what reform have they delivered since we have been "in"?

in brief:

Parliament moves every 15 minutes between cities at huge cost to the taxpayer for no good reason
the accounts have never been audited correctly. only since 2009 and then always qualified i.e. they have no idea where the cash has gone
it is not democratic
it is corrupt

Being in has not achieved much if you ask me. leaving would certainly precipitate an existential crisis for the EU. That could lead to more meaningful reform. Indeed Germany is now saying just that.

see my comment to Drakien.

I hear what you say but it has to be said that a very long history of (non) events tends to strongly disagree with your analysis.

Breaking and re-making may be the best way to go. The EU cannot function without the UK and Germany has admitted that yesterday in clearly stating that it will continue to trade with us notwithstanding French posturing.

I feel the need to emphasise that i am not an OUTie but an undecided 'a plague on all your houses' idiot. maybe IN would be best. Who knows?

Seems to me like the EU has done fine over the last 40 years. I understand the ideological reasons for leaving because it's not a perfect democracy, but I can't see the great harm which being in the EU has done the UK.

it is the harm which will continue caused by things such as TTIP which assist the flow of wealth from the poor and middle classes to the very top. that is happening and whilst it is currently manageable in the middle it has been catastrophic at the bottom end for many - the long term consequences are tragic.
Even remain's len mcklusky has not exactly waxed lyrical about the free movement of labour and its impact on the working class wage in the UK.
so i guess it depends upon how you define "fine" I guess.
Personally I like the free movement thing but it needs to be managed in order that huge numbers are not disenfranchised form work as they undoubtedly have been.

Saw a lad on TV last nights Vox pox...
"I don't know anything about In vs Out so I'm voting for what I knows.... In"
Probably the smartest lad in the land.

you appear to be admitting that his is a blind & sadly desperately ill-informed decision.

whether it is correct or not God only knows. my fear is that nothing will now change and the EU will slide into being the US i.e. more right wing with little democratic control to prevent and reverse the wealth flowing from the many to the very few as indeed is already happening in the EU.

so 'smart' is not what i would call it unless he is worth at least £10M

I am suggesting the fact he is aware he doesn't know anything about it makes him smarter than most.

ah I see apologies. x

This referendum has little to do with UK and a lot with EU. The economic strategy of the EU is decided in the Euro Group which is not elected and can't be influenced by the UK because it's not part of the Euro Zone. The initial point of brexit was not to leave EU - it was supposed to be a trump card to start a process of reform. But after 3 years of failed negotiation, some politicians decided "fuck it, let's just try and leave and see what happens..." All of the scientific community (which isn't actualy scientific) says that this will result in an economic and a political crisis that most likely will tare the EU apart, but it's really difficult to know for sure. I would definitely stay, but I also can see some political power potential in leaving the EU to reform the EU.

well said. It is a really tough call this one.

The EU has been the source of almost all progressive legislation in relation to the environment, water, waste, renewable energy, consumer standards which have been pretty positive in my book

The UK can leave but it will still have to comply with EU standards but will have less say in how they are drafted

The dogs bark, the caravan passes

England votes to downsize, the EU will carry on

i think that there will certainly be economic dislocation but the UK is one of the two economic power houses of europe and may well now boom. It may be that the EU now has an existential crisis rather than us.

no point being in a club that is not democratic

....is because all such legislation had to come from eh EU so therefore it will come from them.