EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

How likely do you think is:

Fully caused by the reasons you give, rather than crap management from the local voted in government?
How do you think shutting the doors will fix it if said government is equally neocon?
Why is it currently impossible to reward people fully fork work?

As I agree with what you said, for example there aren't enough nurses cos there aren't enough places and it's nicer for the necons to strip the NHS. It's also not fair on other countries to "steal" people they educated and not give a crap.

At the same time, taxes have not gone up for years and the cash has to come from somewhere. You see in areas with better provision taxes are also higher. Netherlands unfortunately also turning neocon has higher taxes, better healthcare and roads. Germany, same. Sweden, same.

Leaving the EU to fix this seems a bit drastic and not the only solution if that makes sense?

I think that is a part of 'Reason 1', the other two follow.

I'm just looking for pro leave pieces that are not all about immigration.

I refer to:

"Research organisation ‘The Online Privacy Foundation’ has released interim findings from a series of Facebook studies examining the psychological biases, personality traits and attitudes of 8,995 voters in this week’s Referendum on the UK’s EU membership."

What are the studies, and how has the chosen 8,995 been separated between them, from what socioeconomic backgrounds and geographical locations are these people, and how does the percentage reflect each of these groups?

By the end of the report, it breaks down a small table of conclusions, but fails to refer to the limitation of the research.

"Additional findings show that:"

Show me the pool, show me the numbers. Are they findings from the same 8,995 or from other studies?

All reports are based on interpretation, but sociology (which this is basically) is rife with holes on how to interpret data. I'll dig out the books if I find time and try get the old quotations.

Yeah, and that's both good and fair enough - and I'm reading them. Alan Johnson's is a very good overview of issues with the EU. The first two issues are nuanced, but are real problems. The third is less clear-cut. But here's a response (from someone on the same political spectrum, and who accepts all the issues raised) that I came across on Twitter this morning:

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/06/referendum-eu-remain-renton-migrants-ukip-farage-corbyn-labour/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=socialnetwork

Yeah - that's what I figured. If you email them there is a very good chance they'll provide you with the anonymized data.

I was tempted, but I would only find myself agreeing with their research depending on how I (mis)interpret their data based on my own prejudices.

Skimmed over the Alan Johnson essay, I quite liked his writing style.

Indian media (well one outlet) on how Brexit will be good for India: http://www.ndtv.com/opinion/your-guide-to-brexit-and-5-ways-it-will-impact-india-1421554

I was tempted, but I would only find myself agreeing with their research depending on how I (mis)interpret their data based on my own prejudices.

ha

The third piece is alright as well. Not as good as Johnson, but much better than the thing in The Register.

Having been written in March, however, it wasn't able to see how toxic the Remain camp would become. This reads a tragic underestimation:

The Guardian recently said that ordinary people’s Europhobia has been ‘pandered to and fed by Tory leaders’. So there’s a strange, fearful mob out there and the Tories are recklessly stirring it up. This week, a writer for New Europe magazine listed ‘Europhobia’ alongside ‘xenophobia, nationalism, Islamophobia and racism’, as values that are ‘alien to our postwar European culture’.

See how casually criticism of the EU, opposition to the Brussels oligarchy, is reduced to a phobia, an ism, something which goes against the ideals of Europe itself.

The rest engages with issues of democracy and neoliberalism which, again, I think everyone concedes. But the idea that leaving will solve them is, at best, hopeful, and at worse, counterproductive.

I agree leaving a EU is not ideal but at the moment with the government not investing in youth of today I wonder about the future. The tory/eu solution seems to be allow the free movement and we can get ready made staff at a more efficient rate when ever we want. And those that not happy with us are free to leave. How about making this a great place to work for all people born here and those that are not. Leaving it all to free market means that selfish short termism will be king Adam Smith sang the virtues of free market but it needs to be regulated to protects us from our greed and fear. Lets not just put a pounds sign on everything. Quality of life is not related to the amount of money in you pocket, once a few basic needs are met then studies have shown happiness is not corellated to wealth.

footballer not named Beckham discusses his reason for voting remain

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/22/john-barnes-gove-says-voting-leave-wrong

Can anyone enlighten me on what the effect would be if the UK government simply refused to comply with, or refused to enforce upon UK citizens, an EU law? The UK government enforces law in the UK by being able to enforce punishment on its citizens. How would the EU enforce laws that member states simply refuse to comply with?

It's also worth noting that all the complaints of democratic deficit and neoliberalization are just as applicable to the UK government. Will these issues be rectified after a vote to leave? Like fuck - in the latter case they will likely be accelerated.

This referendum is the people versus the establishment, according to Nigel Farage, the public school educated ex-banker.

The tory/eu solution

Tories =!= EU
The EU is not preventing the government from funding skills training. The EU is not forcing the mindless corporatisation of education. The EU is not hollowing out the NHS and undermining those who work within it.
Vote Tories out at the next election.

I agree markets have to be regulated.

That's what the EU does too. Perhaps not ideally, but it also stops the worst as it's one big compromise and being part of the EU market means you must sign up to the EHRC.

The only solution i see:
Vote Tories out
Increase taxes with investment in people
Drop uni fees as now ppl go to the Netherlands as it's cheaper (it's that bad)
Really regulate banks
Set up a public crowdfunder away from the IMF

I suspect though that so much existing money was made 100s of years ago (see also the catholic church) and how we are going to catch up w/o exploiting people...no idea :/

Based on today's date, I'm concluding that a lack of adequate information to make an informed decision my prejudices have my summary based on opinion (mine or others) and pseudoscience. Historically if, for example, market crashes are cyclical, Capitalism is ever-adaptable, the elite remain and the poor always lose, what other axioms can help with decision-making?

So, I'm guessing that it boils down to...

Remain: fear of (negative) change to trajectory.
Leave: fear of no change to current (not positive) trajectory.

Remain: hope for (positive) change, through small victories a la Cameron's negotions.
Leave: hope for (+/-?) change, through disruption to current systems.

If the 20th Century can be a referent for the adaptability of Capitalism (and disproving most traditional Marxism), and perpetuation of war, then 'nature' will find a way regardless. Seems too easy to say one is the erosion of choice, and the other an erosion of humanity.

Blame the spitefulness in me but I want to see what would happen, I want to see if the sky will burn.

I'm getting zero work done today. I'm amazed at how stressed I am right now.

Here's another piece on the EU and the left: http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2016/06/22/the-left-must-stop-indulging-anti-eu-sentiment-and-get-behind-remain/

This is perhaps the closest to my position I've come across. One quote that gets to the heart of the (very short) argument:

all on the UK left should understand that the EU should be regarded not as an aspect of foreign policy, but as an integral part of the political struggle against neoliberal capitalism. It is simply another part of the terrain on which the political battle for ideas and policies is fought, extending also globally. It is both defeatist and dangerous for the left to believe that the struggle for democratic socialism can be won in one nation-state, and particularly the UK which does not have a strong history of revolutionary political or ideological action.

And this is huge:

The political decision-making structure in the Eurozone is not the familiar one in the EU itself, where it is, uniquely, the Commission’s role to propose policies. In the Eurozone’s current unsatisfactory structure, it is the finance ministers of the 19 member states of the Eurozone – the Eurogroup – who put forward the policy proposals and make the final decisions. Hence, in relation to the on-going Greek debt crisis (actually a German banks crisis) it was not the EU institutions which forced the bad debt deal on Greece, but Germany allied with right-wing governments in the Nordic (Finnish) and Eastern European member states, with support also from the then right-wing governments in Spain and Portugal. In fact, the European Commission (and the IMF as part of the Troika) argued, and still do, for the Greek (German bank) debts to be written off or extended to 30 years. The technocratic elites did not align with the right-wing politicians on austerity.

I know the issues are different but during the 2014 Scottish referendum, the 'Yes' side produced a 670 page white paper outlining the case for independence.

Leave, in contrast, have sent out a map with only Syria & Iraq labelled.

Why doesn't the lack of planning seem to be worrying everyone?

Right. So.
This referendum.
Is there a legal requirement to follow it?
Is there a legal requirement to initiate the divorce proceedings ASAP? Or is it a case of "let's start negotiations, if they're not favourable we're not doing it"?
Or is it really, as Leave say, a case of: "you've made your decision, we're leaving!"

Because I don't see the cunts on the Leave side having the power to do that.

Boris failing to do anything to clean up London's air quality would be one example.
I seem to remember it was a UK based group that pressed for the EU to levy the fines, upon the UK Government, that it can impose. Google will find you the detail.

It holds no legal binding.

The question is basically "what do you think?"

The Government can then decide if they wish to follow the wishes of the people or not.

...the UK which does not have a strong history of revolutionary political or ideological action.

Thread closed?

The referendum is not legally binding on the government.

There is a school of thought that says that the government would have to get a bill though parliament to instigate the use of article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty.

Jack of Kent wrote something about it in his FT blog (and swore never to do so again) which I suspect is good, but is paywalled, so I've not bothered to chase it up.

editing because I'm really not sure, so why say anything

As others have said, there is no legal requirement to leave the EU should the Leave campaign win.

However, if Leave win, then Cameron will be toast within hours, leaving the Tory party to elect a new leader. One assumes Johnson will win, although a compromise candidate, like Theresa May, could be chosen instead.

At some point the Commons would have to approve the invocation of Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty, and that may prove difficult (given most MPs are in favour of remaining in the EU).

It'll be a cluster fuck, whichever way you look at it.