EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

There were almost no badges/posters for staying in the Union during the Scottish referendum, but it happened. Take hope that the silent majority will vote to stay.

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I've seen more remain than leave posters etc. where I am (Forest Hill / Honor Oak Park). Including in my window.

Definitely more remain posters in Greenwich and Lewisham.

Just walked through Chelsea for about a mile and its only Leave posters there.

I've just signed this;

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/123450

Mainly because I believe than in a parliamentary democracy, you elect representatives to deal with the issues at hand and the only party that campaigned to leave the EU in the last election secured one seat, but also because the poisonous, febrile state of this referendum campaign will have a long lasting negative effect on this country.

There is definitely a very strong left wing argument for BREXIT, which your link puts forward.

The thing I don't understand though is how any of this is redressed by leaving?

Will we limit immigration, raise wages and raise taxes?

If we will how will this come about using our current democratic system? The Conservatives have a majority now and even if all parties were totally fractured there are enough with right/libiral economic views to block any bills making those changes.

Also do you believe that we now live in a globalized world with corporations holding close to, or as much power as government? If so how will leaving put us in a stronger position in the context?

^ Indeed. All of the above.

And the left will not restrict immigration probably either if that's the issue.

I've just gotten a Remain leaflet. There are remain posts up near the Falls, but Exit near East Belfast. Leaving is economic suicide in NI but we have EU haters too, usually though not always from the bigoted and simplistic part of society.

There are notable exceptions, that don't like the EU as they think its neocon, anti refugee (is it? Germany and NL took people, but the eastern countries refuse to play ball which is hardly the EUs fault same for UK refusing to take more people) and undemocratic (similar to the UK and the UK electorate has votes for democratic reform the past 20 years and NOW it's an issue...sigh)

Then who are we going to trade with that's NOT neocon. crickets

I'm stuck in between, it's no doubt we should not be a part of the EU because of their ludicrous laws to control masses of people, and their import and export 'middle man' service which charges us a lot for products that usually would be cheaper. It is more the debate whether or not we should leave the other countries in the EU to be fucked over in order to save ourselves. Rather than a quick escape we should look towards 'overthrowing' the EU and all the fuckerys that go on in Brussels.

The thing is, leaving is no guarantee of a left-wing government. I respect the left-wing arguments for leaving, particularly those of Jenny Jones. However, the changes that left hope will come with leaving won't happen. This is because they aren't the goals of the right-wing and centrist leavers who are going to be the dominant ones in any powershift that come about following Brexit. You will literally get the opposite of what you want.

Now that's a good question. First of all, we should be looking to get rid of the dead wood that only turns up to 1 out of 42 meetings for a committee that they are part of. You know, the likes of Farage.

If we aren't benefiting from the EU, shouldn't we be looking at who does and considering their model?

Can I offer some counters to the points you've raised?

charges us a lot for products that usually would be cheaper.

Will that reduce if we leave? For eg if you go to bike24 or one of the other German sites you can buy things without additional tax. Whereas if you use JensonUSA you'll get stung with our own tariffs.

whether or not we should leave the other countries in the EU to be fucked over in order to save ourselves.

If the EU fails and collapses, there will be significant consequences. Those effects will be world wide. It is the largest free market area in the world.

Do you think there would be a significant lessening if we leave? For example, though a conscious shift in our trade policy in the interim to ensure we are isolated from the fall out?

If we remain could we increase the chances of the EU collapsing? And is it worth trying?

I don't know anyone who's Out in London. However, a couple of days out in France with NI fans has been depressing- everybody is voting Leave, and all of them because of immigrants they haven't seen but have been told about. Years of the politics of ignorance and fear are going to culminate in the biggest vote for Christmas a nation of turkeys has ever made.

Volkszone by any chance? Not that I've been on there for a few years now.....

The thing is, leaving is no guarantee of a left-wing government.

But won't the Conservatives be totally torn apart after the result, especially if out? There's talk of Theresa May being a consolatory leader (why she's taking a very limited role in campaigning), but I can't see them keeping their tiny majority. Which leaves Corbyn, and possibly SNP coalition, to run the country.

Though since '79 all we've had is Conservatives and Blair, so I won't get my hopes up too high.

The thing is, leaving is no guarantee of a left-wing government.

Regardless of your political views, I think you can categorically say that leaving will never result in a left-wing govt.

Even with constituency boundary bias the left has not been able to take power since the 70s.

To think that even if Scotland remains in the Union there will somehow be a swing is lunacy. The closest argument you can make is that the Conservatives will implode so violently on BREXIT that only a handful will be electable and the centre will dive across to prevent political contamination....

.... but I still don't see it.

tiny majority

But will the Tory loss of a tiny majority = a powerful enough majority to effect change?

Or will everything just be at worst a massive clustfuck, or at best a maintenance of the status quo because that is where you can reach political consensus?

There's almost no Remain badges/posters anywhere.

You're not in Hackney then? There are only Remain badges/posters here that I've seen.

Are you even in London? The only Leave posters I've seen have been outside the M25.

I got cut up by some prick of a cabbie on Tuesday with a Leave sticker in his window

I honestly can't see the Conservatives getting in next election (even without the Brexit clusterfuck). They've only got a majority now because of the moderating influence of the Lib Dems in the previous government, who were wiped out in return.

Will have to wait and see what policies Corbyn's Labour party will campaign on for the next election.

I keep getting reminded of the saying "I don't know much about Art but I know what I like" when I listen the Leave people.

I haven't made my mind up about whether the Conservatives will make it.

That aside I still don't see how loosing their majority will shift politics from the centre right to the left.

It may be pulled back to the middle ground with some extra soft social policies, but going back to the original point BREXIT, the EU and the left wing... in no way will the issues highlighted in that article be addressed.

Unfortunately years of a segregated education system have made the unionists (and most NI fans are unionists, but not all) quite ripe to the scaremongering for Brexit, cos it's the British thing.

The scaremongering and lack of education are worse ATM in unionist areas, leaders are mostly middle class and don't care about working class issues, it's a mess.

Though one statistic on here a few pages back showed NI was net Remain.

Anyways enjoy your matches and watch out for the English always rioting :P

That's what I thought after Ian Duncan Smyth but they got back in again O_o

I'm in SE15... there's not many posters around here, but I ride out in Kent a lot - many, many leave posters - and have just come back from a quick loop out from London to Somerset and back, and saw so many leave posters.

That's true, my argument to stay is that even though the EU restricts our 'democratic model', theres nothing to prove that a tory government will relieve us of any of the issues we have while we remain in the EU.

And rather than changing our policies and our political model we could quite easily just leave the EU and not have to alter anything else, but this brings me back to another point on whether our democratic model will actually be beneficial for the people or simply just a smaller scale version of the EU's power hierarchy?

In conclusion I feel that theres no doubt the EU is corrupt and causing not much else but issues for the countries within it, but if we leave that is only solving the problem for us, and we need to think on a larger scale not just about our tiny country!