EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

yes, it's definitely supposition. It's just my read of the situation. But either result, I honestly can't see how the Conservatives will come out of this referendum the same as how they went in.

Possibly not. Similarly, I can't see how they would not have anticipated that.

That explains a lot, I suppose.

If we squeak through this, that is something that may want to be reevaluated in the future.

I think there might have been different Conservatives anticipating different things. I doubt Cameron would have called the referendum anticipating any less than 60%.

What is wrong with Corbyn?

Blair is a sociopath who got lots of votes and destroyed Labour, now there's proper moderate Labour and people won't vote for him. (no they want party with a set of sociopaths...)

It seems a media campaign / party reform issues and lack of patience rather than he's utterly useless. To me at least.

Nothing wrong with Corbyn politically. Honestly, I like and respect him which is rare enough for any politician.

However, I just feel that he lacks the presence and personality to capitalise on a weakened Conservative party. I'd prefer a political landscape where people were engaged and interested but the reality is that Corbyn isn't capturing the minds of the nation. I don't think you need a sociopath but you need someone with a bigger personality to wrap Labour politics around them. Someone who can dish out the right measures of rhetoric, polemic and passion on demand.

If Corbyn was a charismatic leader with his left-wing policies, the press would spend even more time denouncing him. Although the dude has been married three times, and elected even more; he's obviously got something going on.

No, the sad fact is that this referendum reflects the generally racist state of the UK; masses of people don't like 'immigration', a code-word for 'people with a different skin colour'. You can provide them all sorts of intellectual reasons to stay in the EU but they don't really read, they don't think critically, and they've spent the past thirty years being told that 'they want to come here and take your jobs'. And now they get to vote. Yay.

I have vague recollections of some sort of EU roadshow bus coming to my secondary school 15-20 years ago but to be honest, we didn't learn anything about how our own government/country functions, let alone the dirty forrins.

On paper, if we take Tory u-turns, Corbyn has been an extermely successful opposition leader.

However, I just feel that he lacks the presence and personality to capitalise on a weakened Conservative party.

This is the criticism however. Is it valid? I'm not convinced.

Is it not just as possible that a strong Corbyn would give the Tories a common enemy, and thus something to unite against.

Ultimately, I'm not sure where the criticism, and the debate that follows, gets us. We enter into a world of counter-factuals very quickly, where - a bit like the EU - we begin to imagine trading off what we know (which may not be the best case scenario, but all things considered, it could have been a lot worse) for what we don't know (with the vague, and unlikely, hope of it being better).

The Tory Right wing are about to pull off a victory a great in scope as the 1945 Labour GE triumph.
35 years of 'Trickledown',
reductions in income tax for the 1/7%
coupled with increases if consumption taxes, (VAT up from 8 to 20%),
dismantling of social provision,
Council Housing sold and legislation to prevent replacement house building by Councils,
privatisation of education under the 'Academy' banner,
privatisation of the NHS, endless re-organisation,
privatisation of water, gas, electricity and rail,
destruction of the coal - steel - engineering base of organised Labour,
ALL to be blamed on immigrants.

Alf Garnett has his revenge from beyond the grave.

I'm more worried about the rest of Europe rather than us, tbh. The whole fucking thing will fall apart.

For anyone feeling gloomy, consider that Brexit will result in Scotland leaving the Union, leaving us with a rump UK electorate set on electing right wing governments in perpetuity. Labour are finished.

There you go, just made you feel worse.

Well, thanks.

What was it that Churchill said about democracy again...? ;)

"UK electorate". Westminster holds the wallet and expect the others to dance.

Well, Brexit may lead to NI joining another corrupt religious run state (ROI) or perhaps we join with Scotland. I wouldn't mind that.

But for NI I think it will be really bad, border being put back up, loss of EU money for trains/improvements of cities... ROI is also skint and corrupt, a join with Scotland isn't guaranteed.

And what about Wales in that scenario?

So basically there's not a lot of time to liquidate assets and move to Scotland?

I'm on it.

Isn't Welsh devolution a bit more complicated than Scottish given that they never actually surrendered and have spent the last 500 years under a state of occupation by England rather than living under an act of (albeit subjugated) Union.

Her only dog in that fight is that she wants to bring back hanging, and the EU prevents the UK from doing that.

It's getting gloomier and gloomier.
The only bright spark is the fact that everyone who votes Brexit will be even more fucked after this, and despite the emotive reasons for voting out, won't have immigrants/damn forrins to blame for it (though they will blame them)

Only hope is that there's a groundswell of Remain voters who want the status quo badly enough to narrowly defeat this, and/or the government decide fuck it, you don't know what you're doing so they don't pull the trigger on it...

I believe that most of the new labour voter that defected after John majors loss have now got back firmly in the tory camp. They are the middle England swing vote. Unless you can get them on side it's now hope, with corbyn that's impossible.

Indy Ref 2.0 might be the only silver lining the "how much do you dislike people that aint white" referendum.

The small Essex town I am in is bedecked with St George's crosses and lots of lies printed on big cards. Pricks.

I'm working in France the day before the vote. Might just pack an extra bag and stay there.

I'm genuinely puzzled by the seemingly increasing Brexit support. At the start of all this referendum business, it seemed like there was a genuine question over whether it was better to be in or out and the vast majority of people were quite understandably without a clue which way to go, other than guided by gut instinct. Now, however, the way i see it is that we've had enough commentary, expert opinion, discourse and so-on to show that it all looks pretty clear it's economic suicide to leave. It feels fairly clear-cut, with just a few high-profile mentalists leading the Brexit camp.

Clearly not so! Are we just a country made up of near-sighted, knee-jerkers or something?

I'm almost regretting having (postal) voted to stay in - i'm starting to think we deserve to cut ourselves off and prove what a dismal rock this place is after all...

I'll be at Glastonbury. Expect the peaceful formation of a republic lead by Eavis.

So Wales is still sorta occupied? Huh I didn't know that.

There you go, something new learned.

So if part of NI, Wales and Scotland don't really like England of which the powerholding part is really South England/London...perhaps there should be an brexit for just that part :P

Now, however, the way i see it is that we've had enough commentary, expert >opinion, discourse and so-on to show that it all looks pretty clear it's economic >suicide to leave.>

I sometimes feel like somewhere I must have missed a massive section of commentary / debate. How / where did all these people pick up that it would be a good idea to leave?