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  • Tub user comments...
    "newer, cutting-edge carbon clinchers like the Zipp Firecrest series can more seamlessly integrate the clincher rim without resorting to an aerodynamic compromise. And moreover, the Firecrest hoops seem highly immune to pinch flats, perhaps because of their much wider rim bed. And the convenience of these things is quite compelling. I'm highly considering going back to clinchers because of these wheels."
    http://www.tririg.com/articles.php?id=2011_07_31_Clinchers_or_Tubulars

    Clinchers beating tubs...

    The very spreadsheet you link to (Tom Anhalt's tests) shows two clinchers at the top of the list: http://microcosm.app/out/b6bdh

    "At least 150g difference per wheel is not "weight weenie"."

    The weight difference btw clincher and tubular for 808FC wheels is 85 grams. Weight Weenie.

    "These days most races allow for wheel changes"
    So your "Puncture resistance? All of these soft features come together to define if something is "faster"." point is moot anyway, unless we're not talking about races, which case my point stands.

    "112 km/h?" No, "70kph". brodouevenunitsofmeasurement?
    "In amateur road races I've seen clinchers leave their rims..." Yeah, with the wheel sideways mid-crash.

    But since wheel swaps are allowed in races and we're talking about punctures, it must be training rides we're talking about, in which case I can inflate my new tube back to what it was when I left the house and it will operate as expected whereas tub-rider now has a poorly-glued/taped replaced tub on their wheel. Clinchers please.

    "how 'bot when the shops are closed. I've ridden trashed tubular tyres home. When my clincher rear blew last month I walked the the 10+ miles home. I would have had no qualms riding the bicycle home if it had been a tubular tyre."

    Spare tube and/or patch kit vs. getting home with a decidedly second-hand tyre/rim. Clinchers please.

    Latex are faster. My point stands. Latex tubes please.

  • To the Firecrests.. Fine that TriTrig thinks they are better but Zipp who make them don't. Let me see if I can find their drag numbers...

    The very spreadsheet you link to (Tom Anhalt's tests) shows two clinchers at the top of the list: http://microcosm.app/out/b6bdh

    The difference in rolling resistance of the tyres at the top are all to be taken with a large heaping of salt. Yes, the rolling resistance of clinchers has vastly improved over the years but your claim was that their rolling resistance is lower.. Note also that, if I recall correctly, Tom uses two coats of Continental cement to glue the tyres. While Conti mastic is quite good it is not the glue with the lowest rolling resistance. It is, afterall, still a softer sticky glue rather than hard. In the Peleton most of the team mechanics don't use it alone but tend to mix other cements in. Don't know what is popular these days but a few years ago Patex was pretty popular with carbon wheels.. On the track-- and I've mentioned this on a number of occasions-- Terokal 2444 is the go-to glue.

    "At least 150g difference per wheel is not "weight weenie"."

    The weight difference btw clincher and tubular for 808FC wheels is 85 grams. Weight Weenie.

    Really? Lets look at the Zipp numbers:
    CC: 1885g (see http://zipp.com/wheels/808-firecrest---carbon-clincher/# )
    Tubular: 1700g
    (these are the numbers that Zipp publish on their Web)
    Difference: 185g. The font wheel difference is 85g. The rear difference is listed as 100g. That is an average 92.5g per wheel difference.

    Lets now look at the difference in weight for the tyres. For the sake of things I'll leave off the weight of the rim tape as its quite similar to the weight of mastic.
    My Continental 22 Comps are ~260g, Veloflex Carbons were ~250g, Vittoria Corsas were ~260g,.. again I'm just choosing really robust and not ultralight tyres... Lets go with 260g.
    Lets look at tyres that claim to be "similar"... My GP4000SII 23mm were ~210g. My 23mm Open Corsa CX were 220g. Veloflex Master was just under 200g. Lets go with 205g. The lighest inner-tubes around are the Continental Supersonic at 50g but they are scary thin.. Good inner-tubes are generally at least 100g each. Just weighed some of my inner-tubes. My latex Paribas came in at 104g. Vittoria UltraLight (Butyl) was 111g. Both weighed on an analytical balance. Lets say 100g. Sum tyre+inner-tube = 305g.
    Difference here is: 45g.
    45+92.5 = 137.5g. That is pretty much the min. average difference. My experience is also that something like the Continental Competition is robuster than a Veloflex Master clincher.. Most people here will probably see a bit larger gap.

    "These days most races allow for wheel changes"
    So your "Puncture resistance? All of these soft features come together to define if something is "faster"." point is moot anyway, unless we're not talking about races, which case my point stands.

    Many races have been won with people riding the last km on flat. Sometimes there is no time for a change. With clinchers there is no choice.

    "112 km/h?" No, "70kph". brodouevenunitsofmeasurement?

    Imperial riders are faster, right?

    But since wheel swaps are allowed in races and we're talking about punctures, it must be training rides we're talking about, in which case I

    Why. You mean there are no punctures or other kinds of tyre defects in races? Heck even on the track I've seen tyres fail-- even explode.

    can inflate my new tube back to what it was when I left the house and it will operate as expected whereas tub-rider now has a poorly-glued/taped replaced tub on their wheel. Clinchers please.

    I don't use tape. I strongly advise against their use. But.. after a flat and a roadside repair or tyre swap.. With tubulars they are not 100%. But that does not say that they are horribly unsafe. For riding about I use something like Mastic One or Conti glue. How many time over the years have I struggled to remove one of those tyres when I got home to glue them correctly.

    "how 'bot when the shops are closed. I've ridden trashed tubular tyres home. When my clincher rear blew last month I walked the the 10+ miles home. I would have had no qualms riding the bicycle home if it had been a tubular tyre."

    Spare tube and/or patch kit vs. getting home with a decidedly second-hand tyre/rim. Clinchers please.

    A patch kit would not have helped. The tyre (Continental) was completely trashed-- massive sidewall failure. I had a patch kit, some sealant, spare inner-tube and a mini-pump but no replacement tyre. When years ago I had total failure from a tubular (Vittoria) I just rode it home-- the tyre delaminated and so was a complete write-off.

    Latex are faster. My point stands. Latex tubes please.

  • "The difference in rolling resistance of the tyres at the top are all to be taken with a large heaping of salt."

    Hey, you provided it as evidence. It just happened the evidence proved my point.

    "137.5g"
    "At least 150g difference"
    Well it's not then is it? I already agreed that tubs were lighter. Remind me, how much of a factor this weight is in bike speed... ?

    "Many races have been won with people riding the last km on flat."
    Pics or it didn't happen.

    "Imperial riders are faster, right?"
    Clincher riders are faster, imperial or otherwise.

    "Why. You mean there are no punctures or other kinds of tyre defects in races? Heck even on the track I've seen tyres fail-- even explode."

    I don't know what point you're making.
    You said because wheel swaps were allowed in races, tubs were somehow faster. My point is, if you can swap a wheel when it fails, it's irrelevant what type of tyre is being used.

    "With tubulars they are not 100%"

    Correct.

    "The tyre (Continental) was completely trashed"
    You should've listened to my earlier advice that Continentals are shit. I would've made a tyre boot and ridden home. I've seen people will clinchers with grass to get home.
    Actually, with the money I've saved not buying stupid tubulars I'd have just called a cab.

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