Is it a right or is it a privilege to have a car ?

How long is your commute @dogtemple ? Could you definitely not ride it? I'm interested because while it might work better to rely on cycling in London it seems the environment for cycling in West Sussex is generally much more pleasant (from what I've seen of rides to Brighton, Shoreham, Seaford etc.).

What Lotus have you got @diable ?

It's pretty obvious to me that one clear need for motor vehicles is people who need them for their trade. As you say it's very different to us office types who don't need to carry much to work with us.

This book by Lynn Sloman, Carsick, is worth a read. It looks at how we are addicted/dependent on driving and suggests ways, both individually and institutionally, to break this dependence
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Car-Sick-Solutions-Car-addicted-Culture/dp/190399876X

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Not always the case that trade folk need cars
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/555068722798048951/

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I had a "really" moment with somebody who needed a car to go to uni...except I lived in that town and it has 2 trains an hour (even at night) and special uni buses.

But there are other parts in the country where, in theory, you could cycle to the bus area and as long as you have a 9-5 schedule take a bus to Belfast. Except that cycling to that town is somewhat suicidal on unlit narrow winding country roads with people flying down them.

I don't expect people to compromise their safety.

I have so much to say on this topic that I still haven't managed to compose a coherent post to contribute.

I'd really enjoy breaking car windscreen with my D lock. So what?

Yup. I suppose I am nasty and evil. Though I wouldn't do it as it would upset the driver or harm them, I wouldn't drive a car either as I'd be harming people with my noise and pollution or could even accidentally run someone over

Car use is just ingrained into some people's brains, and it's the default mode of transport for them.

A friend of mine, who I've done a few 200km Audaxes with so he's not afraid of riding a bike, talks a good game but when round at his recently he still got in his car to drive to the shops 200 yards away to go buy a loaf of bread. I thought he was joking at first. He took ages because "it was a pain finding somewhere to park". It wasn't raining, it wasn't particularly cold, he just chose to drive a 400 yard round trip rather than walking, and took twice as long as walking would have taken. Of course he justified it as "Well I've already got the car, so I may as well use it". Amaze.

It seems that if you've got a car there are so many journeys you'll do with it because it's there:-

• it's more comfortable (possibly, but is comfort the most important thing?)
  
• journeys that could easily be done using other modes of transport
  
• things that could be batched up to reduce miles driven (e.g. going to the tip when you've got a car load of stuff rather than one of my neighbours who seems to go to the tip every weekend even if he's got a carrier bag of stuff to get rid of)
  
  

I guess that at some level car drivers may not like it because they see not being able to use their car as a negative thing, and by not using it they're making it slightly easier for everyone else that is using their car.

Another friend tried to argue against getting shopping delivered as he had to spend "up to an hour waiting for the delivery" and that's just "dead time". But he denied that his usual shopping experience (15 minute drive to the shops, 30 minutes in the supermarket, 15 minutes driving back) involved any dead time.

I wouldn't drive a car either as I'd be harming people with my noise and pollution or could even accidentally run someone over

ITYM they'd accidentally be in collision with the car

I think half of the problem is down to work and/or house prices. The concentration of jobs in urban centres (especially London) forces people to travel long distances as the housing is too expensive for the majority of people who work there.
Also, places of work not embracing home working. I have a remote login to my work, but not allowed to work from home because of 'reasons'

Take away the need to drive to work and I'm sure we'd see car ownership and use drop off

One issue as I see it is that outside of London public transport often takes longer than driving.
In London, bike beats bus, beats car. However in more rural areas where there aren't bus lanes, busses sit in the same traffic jams as cars, however they don't take the same direct route as a car driver does.

You don't have to move far out of London before you can't completely rely on using a bike. I'm in Surrey and by here the public transport system has pretty much dried up. I usually ride to work, but I've screwed my knee in what appears to now be a long term issue, so it looks like I won't be able to do that any more. My choice is 1.5 hours door to door using the train or a 35 minute drive with parking at work (and ride occasionally). I don't particularly like driving, but I'm not spending 3+ hours a day commuting.

Driving is a privilege. We only live in a society where we rely on cars because, like the bicycle, the car enabled us to live further away from our daily business. My personal opinion is that if you have got yourself into the kind of lifestyle where you are 100% dependent on a car then you are foolish, particularly if you are young.

I'm under no illusions that I could live 100% without mine.

If VED was added to the price of petrol then I believe people would think twice about using a car for short journeys, Oliver what is your view on VED added to fuel prices?

I'd think that petrol prices are too variable for this to have any reliable effect.

Let's say you try and recoup £265 (VED band J) from someone who drives 10,000 miles a year in a car that does 40mpg.

10,000/40 = 250 gallons = 1136.52 litres

£265 / 1136.52 = 23p per litre price increase

That's less than the recent drop in fuel prices due to the games the Middle East are playing trying to kill off fracking.

It'd be political suicide for a single party to try and bring that in. Whatever amount you add to fuel you're going to piss off a large number of people who'll end up paying more than they did before because they drive more than the average person.

VED as a separate lump sum that needs to be paid once a year serves as a useful checkpoint for drivers (most notably to get Insurance/MOT sorted once a year). It also makes people look at their choice of car and decide if something less polluting (and in a lower VED band) would be a better idea.

Tcha cities = good public transport/easy to implement short distance traffic.
And high houseprices/rent.

More people in cities = easier to cycle/implement public transport but also higher prices/higher rent (supply and demand).

It's not an easy problem to solved and but it can be part solved (Vienna was very good when I was there 10 years ago) but it doesn't strip all social housing (hi Tories) from the city, has proper rent caps and protection and all that.

I think that although it is a privilege it is often treated as a right. Look at the bans that drivers get after convictions, they're normally a year or two, there is no thought that if someone has shown that they are an inconsiderate driver that they should no longer be allowed to drive.

As for whether driving is necessary or not, as others have said London is significantly different from most places. I've not owned a car in London and I don't see the need. However, where I'm from public transport would be once an hour or so after 6pm and stopping at 9pm (it has improved somewhat) and other nearby places would have about 3 buses a day. Add in the fact it's considerably hillier and wetter than London and, although you may get the odd cyclist, most people are going to drive.

there is no thought that if someone has shown that they are an inconsiderate driver that they should no longer be allowed to drive.

We allow people who have committed other crimes such as murder, drug traffiking and embezzlement to have their liberty restored to them after a certain amount of time. Why should we treat drivers differently? In essence, why do you think that bad drivers are incapable of rehabilitation into good drivers? Or maybe it goes in the other direction, rehabilitation simply isn't possible and people who go to jail should never leave there.

I'm not advocating an outright ban for any infringement. However, bans do often appear to be short when people are disqualified. For instance driving ban guidelines are:
If you have 12 or more penalty points, you could be banned from driving for:

6 months if you get 12 penalty points or more within 3 years
12 months if you get a 2nd disqualification within 3 years
2 years if you get a 3rd disqualification

All of those indicate that the driver hasn't rehabilitated as they're repeat offences.

In extreme circumstances you see drivers getting disqualified 20 times and still driving. http://road.cc/content/news/27511-breaking-seven-years-jail-and-lifetime-ban-lorry-driver-who-killed-catriona-patel At some point you have to accept that they shouldn't be allowed to drive anymore.

ive always referenced the guy who commuted in this as a bit of a legend...

Also pathetic punishments for those caught without a license/insurance, driving whilst banned. No automatic re-testing after 5 years. No automatic re-testing after bans/points/murder/manslaughter.

When ever I find myself having words with drivers, my default question is: "If you did that during your test would you be passed?"

don't know if this has been brought up but the biggest problem for everyone is traffic lights. they create most of the congestion and increases local pollution, subsequent increase in journey time, which makes drivers of all vehicles angry, which makes their driving more dangerous, which makes it less safe to be a pedestrian / cyclist.

(Yes there is the need for some infrastructure to protect vulnerable citizens like handicapped and blind people)

Overall I stand in the 'more regulation is needed' for protection of everyone - road deaths globally are about 1.25 million a year, that's fucking appalling. Not to mention the deaths and disease caused by local pollution, resource consumption, and in the supply chain.

Then there is global warming and climate change which is mostly attributed to fuels burnt in transportation. The commonness of cars will, in my lifetime, return to levels around 1910, the transition is going to be rough. The silver lining - I can't wait to get a job on deck when sail freight makes a return, avast ye land lubbers

Have you seen the modern test, no way would most of us drivers pass that.

@Ste_S you make good points. All this shit is tied up with decades of British life

privilege, obviously.

I have just returned (by train) from a team meeting in Birmingham.
The majority of this team rely on cars to get to the places they have to (audit visits etc).
These team meetings always end with an all paid for hotel,meal and piss up where the conversations often revolve round the difficult driving experiences people have had/will have in getting to here and then home. It feels almost like , if not a communal celebration , an embracement of their dependancy (e.g. what the company car/the next company car tech specs are).
Shared miserable driving experiences - this resigned acceptance like the waiting room of patients with debilitating/terminal illness.
Apparently there is a 'more than one person car occupancy' lane scheme in operation in some part of the road system in Birmingham.
I had complaints about this too.
Yes seriously.
I pragmatically saw no constructive point in mentioning rights or privilege.