That Corbyn fella...

Do you genuinely believe that?

Obviously just my ancidotally based opinion, but given that the majority of the population voted Tory I'd have thought that stance would make swing voters more defensive rather than influence them to vote Labour. It's a bit like when you tell kids that there shit. Rarely do they make a conserted effect to prove you wrong.

Would it not be better to challenge the Conservatives on their failings and work to restore people's trust by trying to tackle the negatives of the Blair-Brown government?

majority of the population voted Tory

It's pedantic, and I'm sure you know it, but really they didn't.

This is precisely the stance that strengthens the resolve of the 11 million odd who voted Tory. No one listens to the 'Tory scum' chants. It is utterly useless at best, and hugely damaging to the Left at worst. If you want to change opinions, you need to engage with those who voted Right and seek to change their opinion with reasoned debate.

It's not really pedantic though, it's important.

I'm confused by your reasoning @hugo7 - you state that people blindly follow parties in spire of their damaging policies, but that a more thorough and intelligent opposition to those policies is what is required to bring round the swing voters and the generally unthinking.

I do genuinely believe that cementing and further encouraging the image of the Tories as the nasty uncaring scum that they are is going to be an important part of the change that needs to happen.

Nah. People largely vote Conservative either because they're actively selfish or because they're passively selfish and don't realise that in being so they are actively damaging other people.

Making the latter group realise the damage that is being done is necessary. The Tories want to continue pushing austerity in part because it necessitates a selfish attitude, which obviously works in their favour.

.

Well we can agree to disagree on that one! If you want to make someone "realise the damage that is being done" you aren't in my view going to achieve that by throwing eggs at them and calling them a cunt.

Also the point on the Tories getting into power without the majority of people voting for them isn't the fault of the Tories - it is the fault of the system. Labour got in in 2005 with an even lower percentage, but I doubt you were up in arms about the injustice of it all then!

The word "Tory" derives from the Middle Irish word tóraidhe; modern Irish tóraí: outlaw, robber or brigand, from the Irish word tóir, meaning "pursuit", since outlaws were "pursued men"

he he

I was 13 in 2005 so forgive me for lacking a particularly sophisticated understanding of the country's electoral system. I think the closest I came to moral indignation that year was my reaction to the removal of chips from the school canteen (thanks Jamie).

People react badly to being called cunts, for sure. Obviously explaining why their policies are wrong is important but it very often boils down to the fact that they're wrong because they're morally repugnant. What else do you call someone who is happy to have people die so that they can make a few quid?

at else do you call someone who is happy to have people die so that they can make a few quid?

I think it's niave to think that is the rational.

It's more likely that they believe that Labour is unfit to manage the economy (which may result in lower spending in the future) and that out of the alternative options the Torys are the next best option.

^ assuming that monetary issues are the only reason someone votes.

I've digressed slightly but my point is that if it becomes unavoidably obvious that what the Tories are doing is disgusting and wrong, a lot of those on the fence will not want to be aligned with them.

I'm not saying we should be calling the Tories evil scum in lieu of discussing their policies, but rather that making the Nasty Party vibes stick is one part of the change needed to get them out of government.

Also the point on the Tories getting into power without the majority of people voting for them isn't the fault of the Tories - it is the fault of the system. Labour got in in 2005 with an even lower percentage, but I doubt you were up in arms about the injustice of it all then!

First, it sort of is their fault as they led the campaign (along with a number of people in Labour, it is worth noting) against electoral reform.

Second, you're simply wrong in many cases about people on the left (including those who were members of the Labour party) not being troubled by the electoral system in 2005.

Of course Labour has historically benefited from the system, but that doesn't mean many who are attached to the Labour movement haven't opposed it.

Monetary issues have never been the reason that I vote, even before becoming particularly politically active. The economy is a fucking sham and for the purposes of these types of discussions exists only as a rhetorical device.

Osborne has been successful as Chancellor only insofar as he has been able to create an illusion of economic competence.

Bit more on electoral reform and the Tories.

The No to AV campaign outspent the yes campaign by huge margins. Who donated?

In May 2011, three days before the referendum vote, The Guardian newspaper released an analysis of the accounts of donations to the campaign, showing that it been funded almost exclusively by Conservative Party donors. 42 of the 53 named donors to the NoToAV campaign were Conservative Party donors, having given between them £18.4 million to the Conservative Party since 2001.[20] Nine were not identifiable from official donor records, another source was identified as official funding from the Electoral Commission, and one was a Labour Party donor, the GMB union.[20]

Money very well spent. It's very unlikely you would have a Conservative government right now had the referendum gone the other way.

...and that is something that Ed Milliband and team resolutely failed to get across.

That being said, I still don't really understand what the average non-one-percenter sees in the conservative party.

Mud slinging is a terrible thing to do, no more so than in politics. Corbyn is admirably taking the higher ground and rather gracefully shrugging off the Tory slander that comes his way. Same for the shit he gets from most of the press. He's trying to focus on policies... though much of the current problem is that he hasn't quite decided on his policies, for which he'll continue to be hammered about in the press. As we've learnt over and over again, the only thing worse to the media than an unpopular policy is a U-turn over that policy. It's seen as weak, for some reason, to not listen to evidence and reasoned discussion.

I totally agree and I would count myself as one of those on the left who isn't a fan of the system (then or now), but you have read a lot more into my post than I wrote. My point was in relation to one person who used the 2015 numbers as another (in my view very flawed) reason to bash the Tories. At no point did I say this is the view of the left as a whole.

Furry muff.

It is odd that you can't change your position based on the most recent evidence or changing circumstance.

I read that as a direct reference to something involving me - I'm not quite sure what though. Am I missing something?

Sorry not you, I mean 'you' as in a party or politician!

It is good that Corbyn is rising above it.

Just don't expect people who are getting shit on by increasingly selfish Tory policies to stop calling them cunts. Unintelligent protest has its place, as do intelligent policy discussions.

Yeah, that's fair enough - trouble is that only the raucous stuff will get reported in the (majority) right wing press.

This Bash is not for turning!

Good debate going here. Just a point of order re Hugo 7:

but given that the majority of the population voted Tory...

The Conservatives' 11,300,109 voters in the last election actually made up

36.8% of votes cast, around 25% of those able to vote and just 17% of the population.

Labour actually put on (increased over last time) more votes than the Tories did, but more people voted overall.

Even the Tories were surprised to have won; it's largely a result of our mad voting system. It did for UKIP and the Greens. And it was the Greens (and UKIP) that first lit the fuse on the reaction to two-faced-platitude-spouting-we're-entitled-to-it politicians that Corbyn is now making hay with.

Give him a few years … it could go either way!