Phil Wood BB Install problems

Hi,

So this is the first time I've installed a Phil Wood BB and I've not found the guide that helpful with this part. I'm attempting to install a 108mm Phil Wood Bottom bracket into a 68mm bracket shell. Both BB and shell are British threaded.

The problem I have is that once the BB is in the shell, the cups will not screw all the way in, leaving perhaps 4/5mm either side. I know that they are the correct threading as, without the BB in the shell, both cups wind in to an entirely flush position. Ive noticed that the bearings have a shoulder and the cups themselves have half of the inner circumference without teeth. This obviously lead me to the conclusion that the cup mounts on to the shoulder, but having tried to push this on by hand they do not seem to fit. Perhaps they need more force, but wanted to check first before I mangle the bearings.

There is obviously something I'm missing so could somebody please enlighten me.

Cheers.

Do you think you can post some pictures of the BB both in and out of the shell?

Yeh sure, showing anything in particular?

E mail Phil wood would be my suggestion ..

A picture is worth a thousand words, as they say.

I am trying to understand your problem. Normally, the drive side cup is inserted all the way in, then you screw the non drive side cup but it doesn't matter if it doesn't go in all the way, just tighten it and the lockring will hold it in place.

I've never seen one, but I suspect you're doing the right thing. Probably the stuff you have is designed for 68 / 73 wide bbs, so in the latter case, there would be less thread visible.

You surely have RTM...
https://www.philwood.com/philpdfs/square_taper_bottom_bracket_cup_installation_instructions_022015.pdf

@yoav sorry I've been mega busy this weekend I'll take some snaps tonight.

@cip1000 the one I have is designed for a 68mm shell and the actual shell is 68mm.

If I were to screw the drive side all the way in then the non-drive side would protrude by around 9mm, surely thats not normal? Like I said, I'll actually take some photos tonight.

Looking at those instructions, it would appear that the cups are meant to protrude abut 5mm from the BB shell. The picture shows that the drive side cup has no flange to rest up against the BB shell (like Shimano) and the non-drive side has no lockring.

Secondly, section 2 says that the BB spindle can be positioned "within a five millimeter band of a “normal” centered position" which suggests that 5mm exposed thread on each side is normal in the centred position.

At least, that's the way I read it.

If you look Very closely on the diagram, on both of the cups the teeth used for installation only go half way through the cup. The inner half of the cup has no teeth around its circumference. This seems to match up with the bearings. Can you see what I mean? This is especially noticeable on this particular diagram when looking at the drive side cup as it shows the teeth do not go all the way through.

Yes, I see that. I think that's to make sure that you screw the cup in the right way round.

Hmmmm perhaps. I'll take some photos tonight anyway.

First - make sure you're applying enough force when tightening the cups - Use a torque wrench. Otherwise, I seem to remember that the cups allow a few mm of left/right adjustment of the chainline by screwing the cups more/less into the bbshell relative to each other; eg non-drive cup in further, drive side less far = chainline further out, and visa-versa. If you're certain you're torquing the cups in hard enough, then could this account for what you're finding?

It is beginning to seem like a few mm either side is normal. Unfortunately I do not have a torque wrench but without jumping on the wrench (exaggeration) the cups protrude a few mm either side if they are screwed in equally. Anway, I'll take some photos later.

The instructions specify a torque of 40 nm but if you haven't got a torque wrench then 'good and tight' will do. Also, it says to use threadlock. I'd ignore that and use copper grease; it will make things much easier when it comes to removing the BB.

I've always followed these instructions:

https://www.philwood.com/philpdfs/crankbearinginstallationguide.pdf

Also 40nm is quite a lot, about 350 inch pound which similar to crank bolts. At that torque the cups should only protude minimally from the BB shell, definitely not 5mm each side.
If you don't need any adjustment, ie. centre the spindle, then it's easiest to screw in one cup completely, as has been suggested, and then put in the cartridge followed by the other cup. Make sure that while you're tightening that side you are not losening the other side (happens a lot, might need to have 2 of the PW installation tools if you haven't got them already). Finally it might help if you put some grease on the inside of the cups and the shoulders of the cartridge, so that the cartridge can slide more easily into the cups. I could never fit the cups onto the cartridge by hand and it always takes a lot of effort to get them off, so it is a tight fit.

With everything out of the frame can you assemble it and offer it up to the bb shell to see how it looks or are the cups an interference fit on the middle bit?

Just googling "phil wood bottom bracket" produces several images where there looks to be around 5mm of thread protruding from the shell.

Doesn't look very aesthetically pleasing or, given the depth of the cups, mechanically sound but seems like it might be meant to be like that?

Traditionally square taper BBs had a fixed cup on the drive side and an adjustable cup on the non drive side. This one has adjustable cups both sides. I had one of those in the 80s (not a Phil Wood), it worked fine. I wouldn't worry about it.

Here are some photos I have taken of it when assembled. Is this just aesthetically a problem (not for me so much) or is there more of a mechanical problem? Sounds like it could just be the former. I am yet to adjust the BB but surely this will result perhaps further protrusion on on side? This is tightened using a wrench to a good tight fit.

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I'd say 50% of the cup isn't in the frame (I can count 4 threads on your photos, 8 on the stock image).

Will you even get a crank arm on there?

This is what I was thinking. Around half the cup can't be right. I've not tried putting the cranks on yet, wanted to get it sorted first but you make a good point.

yeah that looks like too much thread showing to me. Have you greased the threads of the BB shell and cups properly?
When I had my PW BB installed I had about 1 or 2 threads showing, on one side only

Found this on Sheldons website

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/cartridge.html

If you scroll down about 1/4 and look at the table you will see that a PW BB is actually 67mm wide so there should definitely not be any thread protruding, provided the BB is centred of course.

yeh all greased up mate.

I read through the instructions on Sheldon's site but I did not comprehend the relevance of that stat haha. Surely then the cups must go over the shoulder of the bearings?

Yep they should slide over the shoulders of the cartridge so that the cartridge should sit in between the cups with the ends/faces of the cartridge touching the teeth on the inside of the cup. Attached is a picture of what it looks like when the cartridge is slid into the cup.
That way, the whole assembly should be 67mm wide and so should not protrude from your BB shell which is 68mm wide, unless the BB is not centred. I think in your case it must be that the cartridge just won’t slide into the cups properly. Have you tried screwing in one cup completely and then tightening down on the other side, with the insides of the cups as well as the shoulders of the cartridge greased?

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