Groups. How heavy?

Right so:
Over the last year or so I go together a Dura Ace 7400 set and stuck them on a '92 Pinarello Treviso. Also a Dura/Wobler wheelset. The whole thing is heavier and more sluggish than I'd expected. Certainly less of a fun ride than the no name Aelle frame with Tricolore 600 (or older) parts that I already had.
I've been made aware that the wheels may be the problem so I suppose I'm going to change them. Maybe for some Campagnolo Zombas (I'm probably leaving the date-specific bike-owner as curator side of things behind me).
First question: Is that a good idea? Should I do that or get Mavic rims put on the 7400 hubs I already have.
Second question: Should I change the group entirely?
This question is kind of about technology and how much (and how quickly) weight improvements moved down the groups. For example, there's a Daytona Chorus group on eBay (early 2000's). Is that going to be a lighter or better group than the 7400 of ten years earlier.
And if not, what would be?

I'm not really interested in sins of anachronism anymore. But if I go mid price modern, am I going to gain over dead posh (Dura Ace) old?

Check out weight weenies and velobase

I have a pinarello monviso with a 7402/3 groupset it is quite heavy at 11kg. If i put enough effort in it certainly moves well but i really have to try a bit harder. Not convinced it is the wheels though although these are heavy at 1.9kg (da hubs on ambrosio nemesis rims). I think part of the issue is the vittoria pave tubs as i have pave clinchers on another bike and they felt slower than the tyres i have now on that bike. On that same bike the wheels are 2kg (mavic cx14 rims) and the whole bike behaves and feels is far more like a race bike And thats with a old mavic groupset. It is a vitus 992, in fact it is quite swift. So zonda wheels will make a difference but i think the issue is more the frame. Swapping the groupset for a modern one will not help much at all. I use my pinarello when i want to do a club run or have recovery ride or similar.

I did weigh 7402 components before i fitted them and they are heavy so switching to a modern veloce groupset for example could save 300g perhaps over a modern veloce groupset (which is quite light). Wheels will save anpther 400 to 500g. So your bike will be a bit lighter but it will still be the same bike and feel a little unresponsive to power imputs.

Daytona 10 speed works really well. I Have record 10 speed on one bike and i think it is one of the best groupsets ever made, but daytona feels very similar. Dura ace 8 speed is also up there alng with most dura ace kit.

If you are going to swap wheels go for one with a wider rim, that means handbuilt or fulcrum racing 5 lg. Also fit race tyres like vittoria corsa cx these are excellent and are even quite puncture resistant.

Thank you thecycleclinic. That's very informative and convincing. And kind of devastating. I thought Pinarellos rocked.

They do rock but rember this bike is from 1992 it rocked back then and it still does but no as a race bike today. Love my pinarello but not for quick rides but i can still average 17 to 18 mph on it solo so it not too bad.

Okay, well maybe not so devastating then. I'm not a racer at all I just like that zippy, forward momentum feeling I'm not getting now form the Pinarello. I'm fine with my just slightly lighter no-name Aelle thing.

Thanks pip wish. Heading there now.

But if I go mid price modern, am I going to gain over dead posh (Dura Ace) old?

Yes you will.

Old steel works and it works well but it has to be good old steel.

I just like that zippy, forward momentum feeling

Wheelset is the thing here.

Are those hubs you are using cup and cone ? Swap them out for a modern sealed bearing set of wheels even low end Fulcrum 7s or Mavics will do, shod them with some decent ply open tubs (clinchers) and the difference is night and day.

Back in the day Mavic 501 hubs were the sweetest rolling in my opinion. The change from block to cassette did for them unfortunately.

^ sorry what?
Cup and cone bearing last freaking ages if they haven't been massively neglected. And there's a reason why campag and shimano use them. They believe they're better.
Light rims and nice tyres get you more zip. I'd get a modern group if you aren't building a 'classic' ride though.

Hub rolling resistance is not a factor in how fast you go. Those shimano dura ace hubs if on good order will consume 1 to 2w at 30 mph. Changing tyres will make a big difference if the op is riding on gator skins. The problem with switching to lighter rims is i have tried and while the bike feels a bit lighter when putting power down it does not seem to translate to extra speed. My race bike has rims that are 500g each, they are deep and aero they dont slow me down.

I will go back to my example of two wheelset both in the 2kg region.
1) MAVIC MR601 hubs 24H on Mavic Cx14 rims (rims are 575g) these feel quick but i have race tyres on them (conti Gp4000s). So it is not rim weight that makes these wheels feel quick.
2) ambrosio nemesis rim (465g each) on dura ace 7400/3 hubs 32F36R but with vittoria Pave tubs these feel alot slower but in i know it the tyres not the weight of the wheels. They are not very aero either.

Saving 200g on your wheelset will make jack all difference to how fast you go. so fulcrum racing 7s will not make you much faster. The wheels are bit more aero which helps a bit but the difference will be around 10-15W at 30mph. At 18 mph thats down to less 5W maybe 2 or 3W i.e naff all.

Your pinarello is going to be alloy frame if it like mine. Not sure when they stopped making steel frames. Old steel can be great. My race bike is a 1991 sannino (columbus genius steel tubing) and i have that kitted out with very modern kit. it feels modern and is a very quick bike but there is no way the pinarello i have is ever going to feel like that bike no matter how much i spend on it so i have not bothered.

In short if you want ot improve the feel of your pinarello do fit conti gp4000s or vittoria open corsa tyres and see how you like it then. Try latex tubes too as they lower rolling resistance. This two changes will male a difference to how fast you ride. If you then want to change the wheels get some built using a modern wide rim rather than the narrow one the likes of mavic and shimano are using. Wider rims are stiffer and therefore spoke count can be safely dropped while still having a stiff wheel Using light thin spokes. Also wider rims improve ride comfort and road holding and this also makes a real difference to how fast you ride. Think something like grey h plus son archetypes on silver novatec a171/f172 hubs with silver sapim laser spokes 24f/28r. This is a light and stiff wheelset that will out peform all the factory wheelsets priced around £300. Changing ghe groupset will not make much difference unless you have an issue with the gear ratios.

That what i would do if you want to improve the feel of the bike but it will cost and will it make you enjoy riding it more well that for you to decide.

Also wider rims improve ride comfort and road holding and this also makes a real difference to how fast you ride. Think something like grey h plus son archetypes on silver novatec a171/f172 hubs with silver sapim laser spokes 24f/28r. This is a light and stiff wheelset that will out peform all the factory wheelsets priced around £300

Yes, but will it outperform DT R24 Spline, which you can pick up for about £150? :-)

Your pinarello is going to be alloy frame if it like mine.

1992 Treviso is Columbus GPX steel, which seems to be a hybrid SL/EL tubeset made specifically for Pinarello, although the decal also says helical reinforced so there's probably an SLX tube in there too. Should be a decent enough ride by old steel standards, probably better than my Ishiwata 022 Hirame and that's a thing of beauty and a joy forever.

Cup and cone bearing last freaking ages if they haven't been massively neglected.

And there you have it.

Cup and cone need to stay in tune to roll at their best. So on 25 year old hubs that means no rusted up races, no pitted balls and nice unscored cones plus someone who knows how to pre-load the whole set-up to it's optimum.

I believe the examples you cite of Campagnolo and Shimano still using that system are on their high-end wheelsets.

Hold an old early 90s 8 speed rearhub in one hand and a modern Fulcrum or similar in the other and note the weight difference.

Hub rolling resistance is not a factor in how fast you go

Engine determines rider velocity...

However the OP wanted the 'zippy' senatation which I believe modern wheelsets even lower range ones will deliver.

in reply to the above comment yes the wheels i suggested will offer a better ride and "out perform" these dt swiss wheels. They may cost more but they will be stiffer (Dt swiss wheels are not stiff laterally) and that helps how they "feel faster" and the wider rim means a larger tyre volume which actually in theory reduces rolling resistance on smooth surfaces. In practice a 23mm tyre ona wider rim make the wheels roll faster over bumpy roads than a 23mm tyre on a narrower rim and handle better in the bends due to less sidewall flex.

Yes modern cheaper factory wheels give that zippy sensation but without making you any faster.

In reply to figon hold a campagnolo record hub in your hand and a fulcrum hub and there is no difference in weight. Modern dura ace hubs are not heavy either. I build wheelset with these that are around 1470g.

My 25 year old dura ace hubs are perfect, just serviced them and inside perfection. If the ops hubs are worn then that is different but just renewing the grease can make a world of dofference to these. I would get them serviced properly and maybe get them rebuilt onto a pair of h plus archetype rims If the op wants to keep using them. If not get them serviced and sell them hell i might even buy them if the freehub is good as these are hard to find now.

I believe the examples you cite of Campagnolo and Shimano still using that system are on their high-end wheelsets.

Shimano use them on everything from sub-Sora to DuraAce. Campag/Fulcrum use cartridge bearings on their cheap wheels because they are cheap, both to buy and to design and build hubs around. Loose ball cup and cone (angular contact) bearings allow a greater number/size of balls within a given space, so they have higher load bearing capability which should be reflected in longer life, all things being equal. A deep groove radial cartridge ball bearing with the 9×¼" balls found in most cheap Shimano rear hubs is huge (6004, 20×40×12). 6000/6001/6002 bearings (7/8/9×3/16" balls respectively) are adequate for cycle hubs for most people the performance difference is undetectable.

the wheels i suggested will offer a better ride and "out perform" these dt swiss wheels

Have you actually looked at the R24? They have wide rims and AeroComps (New Aero on the rear drive side), so I'd expect their 20/24 spokes to be at least as stiff as your suggested 24/28 Lasers. I'll concede that the rims are not as nice as Archetypes, but I'd put money on the lower spoke count and bladed spokes making them more aero, ride and handling should be about equal, the DT wheels will be about 100g heavier which we all know makes bugger all difference, cheap DT hubs vs. cheap Novatecs is going to be a wash. For half the price, that's not a bad package.

The new R24 might be the one using the R460 rim in which case that is wide and I take it back they might actually be a good buy. the R23 used a rim similar or maybe the same as the RR440 rim which is not that wide and combined with low spoke count and narrow flange seperation on the rear hub meant a flexible rear wheel. Could be getting my DT wheels mixed up sorry if I have.

Oddly enough though lower the spoke count barley makes any difference to aero drag. Zipp did test and published them and they found going from 16 spoke to 24 spoke front wheels changed the drag by less than the margin of error in the measurements. the aero spokes will make some difference but not alot even at 30 mph but there is not alot of data admitidly to support any view point on this. Have you tried holding 30 mph on the flat solo its hard work what ever wheels you have. Tried this in a race on Sunday lasted 2 miles on the front pulling the pack along (into a bit of wind) and had to give it rest after that and was only 25 mph average! 30 mph would have killed me. So for normal speed I personally would not worry about which wheel is marginally more aero than another. So its looking like the DT Swiss R24 wheels now.

It looks like the R23 wheelset uses the R460 rim, the R24 uses a cheaper, heavier, pin-jointed rim - that's why it's so cheap (roughly equivalent to a Mavic A119). On DT's figures, the R24 is 60g per wheel heavier, so you're looking at a 520g rim, hard to see any other difference from the R23. Even with discount, you're paying nearly €200 to upgrade from a pin-jointed rim to a 60g lighter sleeve jointed one, so the R23 doesn't look anything like a bargain.

The r460 rim is pin joined though. The rr40 rim is welded. The r460 is 18mm internal width and 23mm external and the rr440 is 16mm internal 21mm external width. The rim width should give it away which rim is used. i am not clear anymore about what wheel uses what rim. Rim weight though is not why a modern wheelset feels zippy it is the lateral stiffness i think.

The r460 rim is pin joined though

No, it's sleeved

The r460 is 18mm internal width and 23mm external

Same spec as the R23, but then the R24 has the same int./ext./height dimensions too, it just has extra hollows in the extrusion to take dowel pins rather than a shape-matched sleeve. The R24 rim doesn't correspond to any separate rim product

Interesting as an academic exercise, but ultimately pointless.

I spent a large part of my youth, wringing every last HP out of various motley Lambrettas: filing ports, skimming heads and hunting down Li 150 Special gear clusters.

Only to be left with the sweet, sweet smell of Castrol R in my nostrils as I got spanked by a stock RD.

A twenty-five year old frame is going to feel like a twenty-five year old frame, regardless of what you hang off it: build it nice and ride it slow, so everyone can admire it (you)...

#orjusthaveabigshit

My bad the R460 rim is sleeved. Just heard so many talk about being pinned I that had become true.