650s and 451s (this was certainly true of 450s, I haven't looked at a pair of 451s in the flesh) are the same casting, with the 650s having a better finish and nicer parts. From memory the 450s didn't have cartridge brake pads either.
Both 650s and Grand Cru are good. What can I say? They both stop me. I do weigh about at much as a bag of sugar of though, so probably don't really test brakes to their limits.
I prefer the look of the Grand Cru. They have proven reliable and easy to set up so far (I have only done about 5000km on those so far compared to probably more 30000km on the 650 equipped bike).
If I were on a budget, I reckon 451s would be my choice and then look at changing the pads to a cartridge system when the originals ran out (Swissstop Green (now blue?) being my preferred ones). Though I do hear you on the whole shimano/campagnolo thing. Life is too short to really worry about these things too much though.
(I have 650s and Grand Cru)
650s and 451s (this was certainly true of 450s, I haven't looked at a pair of 451s in the flesh) are the same casting, with the 650s having a better finish and nicer parts. From memory the 450s didn't have cartridge brake pads either.
Both 650s and Grand Cru are good. What can I say? They both stop me. I do weigh about at much as a bag of sugar of though, so probably don't really test brakes to their limits.
I prefer the look of the Grand Cru. They have proven reliable and easy to set up so far (I have only done about 5000km on those so far compared to probably more 30000km on the 650 equipped bike).
If I were on a budget, I reckon 451s would be my choice and then look at changing the pads to a cartridge system when the originals ran out (Swissstop Green (now blue?) being my preferred ones). Though I do hear you on the whole shimano/campagnolo thing. Life is too short to really worry about these things too much though.