Orient Express - Cheap Chinese Rims / Wheels / Forks / Frames / Cranks / Etc

@dan's behind you!

I get buying cheap carbon parts, but dunno why you'd want them branded up as something they're not. Kinda like buying a fake Rolex, sure you might trick a few people, but you're always gonna know it's not the real deal. Seems a bit lame.

The chinese carbon bikes that I've rode (including the one I own) certainly haven't been worlds apart from the high end branded carbon frames that I've rode. I used to own a madone too and my own chinese frame feels better than the madone but then a comparison is hard as they are quite different frames, mine being based on a Venge.

Obviously the cost of R&D factors into the final retail price of a product. Personally after spending about £400 on a chinese frame it makes me wonder if I'll ever find my self spending anything near £2000 on a branded frame again when I don't think there is any performance gap.

I get buying cheap carbon parts, but dunno why you'd want them branded up as something they're not. Kinda like buying a fake Rolex, sure you might trick a few people, but you're always gonna know it's not the real deal. Seems a bit lame.

Aye, I totally agree with this. I wouldn't dream of having S-WORKS plastered all over my bike. The real Venge frames look a bit vulgar with the huge logos.

it-WORKS (?)

it-WORKS (?)

Eh??

The only thing Enve make in the USA is the rims and tubes for frame builders. Everything else is made in Asia. They are not very transparent about this but it is documented on the web

I didn't know that, would be interested to read up on it.

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Do you work for free when you develop your products?

meh... post was in response to yours on the previous page.

I don't develop any products.

Ah, I see. I had contemplated getting some custom graphics based on my nick name and using that spesh font but in the end I really liked the frame sans logo.

I know it was but we'd be here for ever ruining the thread arguing about how retail prices should be set.
How much is a product worth? Whats its value? Its worth exactly what someone is willing to pay... etc, etc blah blah blah

please link to chinese 'VCLS' seatpost & 'enve' bars

http://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-vcls-seatpost.html

http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20150215125830&SearchText=enve+bars

@carbonsinglespeed You really picked that up and ran with it, didn't you?

Put simply - you get what you pay for. If you paid £30 for a part, it's patently a £30 part, not a £300 one.
It is (literally) impossible to argue with that, it's basic market forces stuff. That is my point.

If you want to buy a £30 carbon part, then those are your dice to roll, but it just seems a bit pony to want someone to paint a logo on it to make it look like you have £300 to throw at it. Bit like sticking a Ferrari badge on your fiesta.

Oh look, you already made my point for me.

How much is a product worth? Whats its value? Its worth exactly what someone is willing to pay... etc, etc blah blah blah

Well you're not really understanding what I'm saying...
Worth and value are ultimately subjective.
I'm not arguing that a £30 chinese part is the same as £300 part, in my opinion there isn't A £270 difference.
I have genuine a specialized s-works bar stem combo(I bought second hand) that a had an insane rrp. Yet in terms of performance it's no stiffer than the cheap chinese carbon that I've used.
I don't personally agree with having the logos printed on either.
But yeah like I said, whatever people are willing to pay...

In other news, my Far Sports rims arrived in Coventry last Thursday and the status has just been updated to 'Awaiting Customs Charging'. Last time, I got lucky as the rims were marked as 'samples'. Question is, does this mean I will actually get charged or are they just going to have a look at the goods?

@carbonsinglespeed You really picked that up and ran with it, didn't you?

Put simply - you get what you pay for. If you paid £30 for a part, it's patently a £30 part, not a £300 one.
It is (literally) impossible to argue with that, it's basic market forces stuff. That is my point.

If you want to buy a £30 carbon part, then those are your dice to roll, but it just seems a bit pony to want someone to paint a logo on it to make it look like you have £300 to throw at it. Bit like sticking a Ferrari badge on your fiesta.>

It sounds like you aren't familiar with how 'brands' work...

But having said that there's a well known brand(ok FSA) that had an integrated bar/stem combo that had a rrp of £300 odd and it transpired that the bars where in fact oem made for them by factories in china. The exact same bars could be bought for £80 without the FSA logos.

It's more about whether you actually do trust the quality and strength of the same bar without the logos.

It's cheap because there's risk involved.

I was searching their website for rims the other day but couldn't find them. Am I missing something or shall I just send them an email?

But having said that there's a well known brand(ok FSA) that had an integrated bar/stem combo that had a rrp of £300 odd and it transpired that the bars where in fact oem made for them by factories in china. The exact same bars could be bought for £80 without the FSA logos.

The difficulty with this argument is whether or not the bars are the 'exact same'. It's easy enough to copy the external shape of some handlebars. A 3D laser scan, or simply a CMM arm will provide you with the external shape, and once you've got that it's straightforward enough to produce a mould using the 3D CAD files. Use that mould to produce a copy and you'll end up with something that looks identical to the original. To be honest, a decent tool-maker with nothing more than a ruler and some vernier calipers could knock something out which would fool anyone who didn't have decent metrology equipment.

However, there's no guarantee whatsoever that the carbon used will be the same. The original layup could use twill, plain weave or UD carbon or any combination of them. If it's twill or plain it could be 1k or 2.5k or 3k. It could be high modulus carbon, like Toray 700, 800 or 1000, or it could be cheaper and less stiff carbon strands. And then there's the orientation of the fibres in the layup, which is critical to both stiffness and strength.

Of course, there's also the resin system. OK, it's probably epoxy, but is it prepreg or resin infusion? Is it an internal bladder system or a solid mandrel set-up? What's the chemistry of the resin and how effective is it at wetting out the carbon and what's the consolidation ratio when it's cured?

You can't tell any of this by looking at it. The bottom line is, you can't tell without a rather expensively-equipped laboratory. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Chinese open mould carbon stuff. I've got a Hong Fu 29er frame which has served me very well, and a Gotobike road frame which has been excellent. I'd have no hesitation buying from either company again, as both seem to be well-established and reputable resellers.

On the other hand, I would be much less inclined to trust a company selling counterfeit knock-offs. A company which bases its business model on copyright infringement is not one I'd want to trust my safety and well-being to.

But, as ever, YMMV.

lol.

@davog You need to email them directly. Not everything is listed on their site.