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My argument is that a majority of utility cyclists want a quick and direct journey. It is the likes of Copenhagenize, as I've said, that try and cast this shared aim as just a desire to 'go fast' when it's used as part of a pro road cycling argument.
You're right, the majority want a direct route and this includes people who want to cycle fast and those who are happy to cycle more slowly, and the old and the young etc. There is nothing about being a less-confident cyclist that makes a roundabout route more appealing, people want to get places. Also "direct" in this context doesn't just mean "straight-line" it also means a route that doesn't cede priority to every side road i.e., it means a major road. This major road can either be segregated (properly) or unsegregated; there's no point pissing around with half measures. So a "pro-road" cycling argument often equates to an anti-segregation argument, and it should be rejected because it is an argument against the infrastructure that will allow the majority of people to be comfortable cycling on the most desirable route. It doesn't need to (and shouldn't) be rejected on the grounds that it's made by people who "just want to go fast".
As for 'people won't use a less direct route' - well my point is that a parallel quieter route between a and b can be just as direct as the main route between a and b. Perhaps even more direct in some cases. You just need to show people it's there, something not done terribly well on a lot of the LCN routes at present.
It might be straighter, but it's unlikely to be more convenient (see my first paragraph) so it's no good suggesting that it will be ok for slower cyclists because they want the most "direct" route as well.
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^ Such a daft line of division; why aren't individuals fast on some days and really slow on others? (Age does this to you, fam.)
I'm not sure Thatcher got rid of Cycling Proficiency, as I remember doing mine when Major was in power.
I also don't remember fuck all from it other than sticking your arm out to indicate. It took me about two years of riding like a dunce on the streets (and pavements) of Derby about 15 years after I did my test before I got into internet forums and actually read stuff about cycling better.
We really just need to get info out there to people taking to bikes as to better riding techniques and the benefits thereof as no one is really exposed to the information. But sadly there's people like that Donowotsit bloke who are afaik actively against that because it detracts from the exclusive goal of cycle lanes.>
The point is that the idea of doing any kind of a test/course wasn't so strange, the idea of communicating with other road users was seen as the norm.
Right now there are numerous people even here that will champion training yet wouldn't contemplate doing it themselves...
I did an S.U.D course this weekend that went really well. The drivers really got it. They got a firm understanding of why cyclists do the stuff they do (e.g. failures of infrastructure). They got a taste of being tailgated by cars and non-related HGVs rumbling around them - with a driver on the phone in one case. They all admitted at the end that they'd still be reluctant to sign up to a course...I guess its A.E.A.R.B (as easy as riding a bike)
...Le sigh
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The video of 10 bus stop by-passes from David Hembrow made me weep (again). What relevance to those designs have to the narrow bits of Kingsland road where there is very little pavement space, less than 12 metres road width used by almost 1000 cyclists and 5-6000 bus passengers in peak hour. There are very complex problems there which cannot be sorted with trivial solutions.
I was just about to post somethign along those lines. So frustrating having someone cycle around quiet country roads with a long historical precedent of catering for bikes and then claim that people can't even copy them properly.
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I don't know what the solution to getting more people riding is, I don't know if more segregation is better or worse, I've not ridden a bike in Holland or Copenhagen. But I have to say I absolutely cannot stand whoever the fuck these people who insult, belittle and deride people who aren't totally behind segregation, lycra wearers and the like. People like copenhagenize and people in smaller groups go out of their way to attack people who've made huge positive differences to cycling in this country, who have more or less dedicated their lives to improving conditions for cyclists and cycling in general, when as far as I know these people have done fuck all themselves other than making a lot of noise on the internet. Seriously, who the fuck are these arseholes?
+1
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I can pretty much summarise what I remember about cycling proficiency. This was, I guess, in the Thatcher years. We had milk too, in midget-sized bottles.
- hand signals
- position yourself further over when turning right
- always look behind before signalling, manouvreing etc
- turning right is innately dangerous
Having also done modern cycle training, I think the main difference is there was no real emphasis on road positioning other than at junctions when turning right: I don't recall anything highlighting dooring risk, and there was certainly nothing that stuck in my memory about left-hooks. The other substantive difference was that the training wasn't done on public roads with an instructor also on a bike , but in the schoolyard supervised by a teacher (who may or may not have owned a bike but usually appeared in a yellow Volvo).
You're right though, it was a entirely 'normal' thing and everyone in my school year (all 6 of them or whatever it was, I grew up in the sticks) did it. It was just one of those things that you were expected to do, like the BAGA gymnastics award for that matter. The thing is it did actually stick in my memory enough that the idea of signalling, shoulder checking etc didn't seem at all strange by the time I actually got round to cycling on the road in earnest.
However, as
- hand signals
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@Jezston all of the rep
I absolutely cannot stand whoever the fuck these people who insult, belittle and deride people who aren't totally behind segregation, lycra wearers and the like. People like copenhagenize and people in smaller groups go out of their way to attack people who've made huge positive differences to cycling in this country, who have more or less dedicated their lives to improving conditions for cyclists and cycling in general, when as far as I know these people have done fuck all themselves other than making a lot of noise on the internet. Seriously, who the fuck are these arseholes?
+1
This is the loud, militant voice of segregation.
We need to understand that these people don't look at the road the same way that we do.
There is no "share the road" with these people, it's an "us and them" battle, "cyclists vs motorists".
They don't need a licence to ride a bike, therefore are not obliged to be trained or educated to use the road in a safe manner, so they want there own road, instead of learning or teaching themselves like I did how to use the existing roads.
When they see a bad road they don't ask the questions; why is road so bad? Why is this junction so chaotic? Why are road users at a standstill constantly? What is happening to prevent free traffic flow? Why isn't there enough space?
They don't care that cyclists, cars, busses, vans, motorcyclists are all road users, and are capable of sharing the road.
Improve the bad road for everyone, make the bad junction easier to navigate for everyone and all road users will benefit.
The louder this segregation voice gets the closer we get to this in London:
I currently live in a city (Helsinki) that has a really shitty segregation system. I have to share with pedestrians, blithe dog walkers, motorised scooters and those fucking rollerbladers with sticks thing. And also cyclists coming in the other direction on a cycle path 1.5m wide. If I try using the road, I will get shit and could get fined.
Cyclists have the right to be road users, we can prevent the above from happening if we stop the segregation nazis from drawing lines between us and motorists. We should instead be uniting to have bad junctions and roads completely redesigned to help all road users co-exist safely.
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I absolutely cannot stand whoever the fuck these people who insult, belittle and deride people who aren't totally behind segregation
.
if we stop the segregation nazis
Cycling is quite distinct as a form of transport, it is quicker than walking but slower than driving. It is more flexible than driving but less than walking. In the absence of motorised vehicles of significant mass you also have absence of traffic lights. Cyclists mixing with other cyclists can do so through a reasonably fair interaction, no cyclist can argue with a bus that wants to pull in to the kerb.
For all the negative interactions people on here have with ''nodders'' et al. The worst injury is a broken limb, though correct me if I'm wrong. Complaining that other people will get in your way just smacks of the aggressive taxi driver motif, ''get off my road, I could go much faster without you in the way.''
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" The thing is it did actually stick in my memory enough that the idea of signalling, shoulder checking etc didn't seem at all strange by the time I actually got round to cycling on the road in earnest.">
That is is all I wanted recognised; that some of the lost generation (current drivers and cyclists alike) simply take signalling as an optional extra...like a walnut gear knob.
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For all the negative interactions people on here have with ''nodders'' et al. The worst injury is a broken limb, though correct me if I'm wrong. Complaining that other people will get in your way just smacks of the aggressive taxi driver motif, ''get off my road, I could go much faster without you in the way.''>
Agreed with the first part but given the history of poorly designed infrastructure (see Blackfriars Bridge decision to secede road space from the majority cyclists to keep the motor flow crowd happy,) good luck with the inevitable velokettling®. Woe betide the ones that opt not to use it.
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It might cost extra but it is in no way optional.
Once you go walnut...
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In the absence of motorised vehicles of significant mass you also have absence of traffic lights.
Accept this is London, population 9 million, not everyone wants to cycle. People want to sit in warm cars, and buses, and not physically exert themselves every day to and from work whilst battling the elements. I don't blame them.
We will always have junctions and traffic lights, unless you want to completely level the whole of London and start again?
no cyclist can argue with a bus that wants to pull in to the kerb.
Why have you put yourself in the position of riding up the left hand side of a bus and the pavement?
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Improve the bad road for everyone, make the bad junction easier to navigate for everyone and all road users will benefit.
In my view, if you have to learn and memorised which lane to get to in order to go to the direction you want to go, it's a badly designed junction.
A good junction should be easy enough for anyone to use without needing to figure out which of the 4 lane will guide them to the correct direction at 40mph in a short distance (I'm talking about driving).
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Why have you put yourself in the position of riding up the left hand side of a bus and the pavement?
Come on now, that's just comes across as trolling but I'll indulge you as you seem to be struggling. An example how you might find yourself being barged to the kerb by a bus through no fault of your own. Maida Vale, three lanes North, left hand bus/taxi/cycle. Given the distance between the lights a bus can easily top 30 mph up there. Then with the enormous amount of road space the bus can easily pull alongside you, and can then easily pull into the kerb while directly to your right. Was that so hard to fathom?
How about the many slip roads that appear on your left while you want to go straight on? How do you avoid getting sideswiped by a vehicle in the wrong lane turning left other than just ceding the road?
In the absence of motorised vehicles of significant mass you also have absence of traffic lights.
Except this is London, population 9 million, not everyone wants to cycle. People want to sit in warm cars, and buses, and not physically exert themselves every day to and from work whilst battling the elements. I don't blame them.
You've missed my point which is cycling interactions are generally so benign that formal junction signalling is unnecessary, cyclists generally co exist quite happily, cf the massive commuter pelotons in Holland. And where many right(UK left) turns are unsignalled though the junction as a whole is signalled.
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Agreed, you have to have your shit together when approaching the junction at Deptford Bridge for e.g, I know the area well so I'm fine but many motorists get caught out because it's such a mess.
It needs a complete overhaul. A couple of cycle lanes wont change the fact that is a catastrophic junction for all.
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Was that so hard to fathom?
Waterloo Bridge every morning, two lanes Northbound cycle/taxi/bus other one for all other traffic. Everything can hit 25-30 over that bridge, when I'm approaching the bus stop I look for a gap in the right, signal, indicate when I'm safe to move and get into the right hand lane. I never get caught out.
How about the many slip roads that appear on your left while you want to go straight on? How do you avoid getting sideswiped by a vehicle in the wrong lane turning left other than just ceding the road?
Riding in prime? Observing what's going on ahead? Taking precaution that someone can and will pull out? These are just simple road skills. The same can happen to any vehicle in that position.
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Waterloo Bridge every morning, two lanes Northbound cycle/taxi/bus other one for all other traffic. Everything can hit 25-30 over that bridge, when I'm approaching the bus stop I look for a gap in the right, signal, indicate when I'm safe to move and get into the right hand lane. I never get caught out.
What's your point? Why won't you answer my questions? How do you stop yourself getting sideswiped by left turning vehicles?
Waterloo Bridge every morning, two lanes Northbound
What's that got to do with anything? I said three lanes, what then? You expect a 65 gran to do that? Or a novice? Or a 5 year old? That's a pretty steep uphill climb.
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Riding in prime? Observing what's going on ahead? Taking precaution that someone can and will pull out? These are just simple road skills. The same can happen to any vehicle in that position.
What he meant is that the bus will likely to pull in while you're still on the lane without warning.
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How do you stop yourself getting sideswiped by left turning vehicles?
Like I just said ^
Riding in prime? Observing what's going on ahead? Taking precaution that someone can and will pull out? These are just simple road skills. The same can happen to any vehicle in that position.
Also not undertaking is good.
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About
If you support segregated cycling infrastructure in Hackney
Posted by
@cyclelove
I'm not sure Thatcher got rid of Cycling Proficiency, as I remember doing mine when Major was in power.
I also don't remember fuck all from it other than sticking your arm out to indicate. It took me about two years of riding like a dunce on the streets (and pavements) of Derby about 15 years after I did my test before I got into internet forums and actually read stuff about cycling better.
We really just need to get info out there to people taking to bikes as to better riding techniques and the benefits thereof as no one is really exposed to the information. But sadly there's people like that Donowotsit bloke who are afaik actively against that because it detracts from the exclusive goal of cycle lanes.