If you support segregated cycling infrastructure in Hackney

Any main route that's not safe for someone who is (say) 15 or 65 to cycle.

I see lots of 65 year olds cycling along main roads, quite happily.

You should really amend "any main route that's not safe" to "any main route that I have a subjective perception is not safe for a notional 15 or 65 year old". Come on, give us an actual junction.

Oh you did. Oh it's the A10.

Is this all about the A10 and one or two people's well-known gripes over it as has been mentioned upthread?

Why is safety based on age?

One of the young riders in my cycling club was quite able to ride around Sheffield city centre and out on major roads to Lincolnshire quite safely even back when I joined the club and she was about 13. Equally I was riding the PBP with a 74 year old guy back in 2011. He remarked how far a cry it was from rush hour traffic in his home city of Manchester. I saw him out a couple of months ago and he didn't seem to be horribly crippled or dead so I presume still able to be safe on the roads.

If Hackney PoB want to get support for segregations, one of the things they really need to do is drop this ridiculously fuckwitted notion that that the young and the old are inherently more vulnerable and fragile like a piece of fine china. Many of them are confident, capable and experienced riders. It's just shittily patronising to make these blanket assessments. Similarly there are plenty of people that fall within that miraculously safe age bracket who aren't confident, capable and experienced.

Stop this shit now, it's stupid and it makes you look stupid.

I see lots of 65 year olds cycling along main roads, quite happily.

Lots? I hardly see any. When I ride in to work I'd say that 75% of the people riding are 20-35 years old.

Nope not just the A10, that was the first example to hand.

Really?

When you're riding to work you don't see many people who are commonly of an age where they are likely to be retired?

Shocked I tell you, SHOCKED.

cough... maybe it's because the over 65s are mostly retired so they won't be commuting when you are.

edit: TSK got there first

I think 8-80 is just a snappy way of saying 'anyone'. Hardly useful as a specific goal.

But it's still not the 74-year-old Manc or 65-year-old Hackneyite that POB are worried about. They're obviously fine, but there are the ones who don't cycle around, who can't walk far because of bad hips who might like to pootle down to the shops on Kingsland road. Some folks are willing, others aren't, but maybe more would be.

Nope not just the A10, that was the first example to hand.

I guess it was the first one to hand because that's the one being pushed by a fairly noisy blogger who has been fulminating about Hackney Council and the loss of their beloved segregated cycle lanes for a couple of years now. And who appears to be closely involved with "Hackney POB".

I'm sure your heart is in the right place, but beware of getting carried away on someone else's hobby-horse.

If anything retirement means scarier cycling because you're going to be doing it outside of the rush-hour, I guess.

Yep. This country can't even maintain the roads to a proper standard. Bike paths would have no chance.

@mattioats

but there are the ones who don't cycle around, who can't walk far because of bad hips who might like to pootle down to the shops on Kingsland road

I think there comes a point where you need to start looking at your definition of "anyone". I mean, you're saying that this kind of infrastructure is particularly useful for targeting infirm people making short journeys. @cyclelove is saying it's good for targeting all potential cyclists. Well, which is it? Who are you trying to get on bikes, and why?

Really, why would that be?

I came into work late today and really found there were far fewer conflicts and potential conflicts than at mys usual commute time in the middle of rush hour. It seemed a lot more relaxed and calm.

Ah, I was just likening it to the safety in numbers theory, which I don't hold much faith in.

Personally I find it varies greatly depending on which road I'm on as to whether other cyclists are a help or a hindrance.

It can be both. Older people are still potential cyclists as much as my parents who are still able to do anything, but wouldn't dream of getting on a bike in Manchester.

But is that because they're older people or because they lack confidence, capability and experience.

When you're riding to work you don't see many people who are commonly of an age where they are likely to be retired?

I said 20-35. People who are over 35 and under 65 also work.

Specific problem points according to HackneyPOB: Pembury Junction, Amhurst Rd/Narrowway, Mare St into cycle lane, Lea Bridge Roundabout.

Found a pretty good summary of why I'm happy to leave you to this discussion on your own.

"A small, yet vocal, group that is male-dominated, testosterone-driven and that lacks basic understanding of human nature. They expect that everyone should be just like them - classic sub-cultural point of view - and that everyone should embrace cycling in traffic and pretending they are cars. They are apparently uninterested in seeing grandmothers, mothers or fathers with children or anyone who doesn't resemble then contributing to re-creating the foundations of liveable cities by reestablishing the bicycle as transport."

You fail to evidence your claims, and then resort to dismissive & patronising ad hominem attacks.

Thanks.

Stop this shit now, it's stupid and it makes you look stupid.

This is a discussion forum, so why do you have a problem with having a discussion about something?

Maybe I've been a bit naive in my approach, and I agree that a couple of comments have been antagonistic, but I'm genuinely shocked how much anger has been expressed in less than a day on this thread. I'm interested to hear everyone's views. You don't have to shit down my neck because I disagree with you.

This is why I stopped hanging out on here in the first place.

I'm interested to hear everyone's views

Though only if they agree with yours apparently.

Yes, perhaps if youtake your own words within the context that you put them yourself.

However, you're not without point.

But what's the reason for that?
Do you travel from an area with a typically lower age demographic such as the hipster haven of Hackney?
Do you travel to an area with a typically lower working age demographic such as along the Hipster Spice Route?
Do you travel at a time more popular with the younger age demographic such as at Hipster O'Clock? (some things you just can't refuse)
Are you conflating being a cyclist with youthfulness? (i.e. have you actually asked cyclists their age to get a proper sample or are you possibly falling for that effect where active people appear younger than sedentary people?
Do you live in a society where we've had decades of the car being part of an increasingly aspirational function and younger people are part of a new wave of change in that, along with other developments such as social media, technology ownership, greater social liberation in freedom of self-determination in actions?

I'm not shitting down your neck because I disagree with you. It's not such a simple binaristic position as that. I actually think that there is a place for segregation. I might disagree with you on where and when those places should be but that's variance not dissent.

I'm shitting down your neck beause you've been saying some stupid shit. It's not stupid because I disagree, it's stupid because it's genuinely stupid. And I'm not angry either. Although I will admit to being a bit frustrated at watching you sabotage your own argument with poorly thought out ideas and statements. If you really want to get segregation in place then it isn't us that you have to convince. You'll need to convince authorities and people with money, budgetary responsibilities and political agendas. If you keep up like this with them it won't work. They'll smile, they'll nod, they'll commend you on something like their passion, they'll make some vague promises about involving you in future processes or something equally intangible and then they'll find a way to politely tell you to fuck off.

Segregated cycle lanes are a terrible idea to me. It would honestly put me off cycling in London. Part of the joy of cycling is the freedom it gives you. A segregated lane would totally negate this and, purely from a selfish perspective, the thought of only being able to ride as fast as the slowest person in front of you (or the line of people in front of you stuck behind the slowest rider), would infuriate me.

If cycling on the road in London is really such an issue for some people then perhaps cycling in a city as not for them. Is it really that bad riding with your wits about you and doing your best to anticipate any potential hazards?! As pointed out previously, the main hazards come from junctions and people turning in front of you at junctions because they "didn't see you". Unless the proposal is going to include a bridge at every single turning then these hazards will always be there! Not to mention the ammo drivers will be given when you choose not to cycle in the designated lane.

The thought of only being able to ride as fast as the slowest person in front of you (or the line of people in front of you stuck behind the slowest rider), would infuriate me.

Only if the law force you to stay on the cycle lane, which it doesn't.

I'm genuinely shocked how much anger has been expressed in less than a day on this thread

I'm surprised, mainly because you opened the discussion with a line about "not understanding" why some people didn't like segregation, thereby inviting people to talk about some reasons they disagree with it. As you have been on this forum for several years, you surely can't have failed to notice that the general feeling here is in favour of taking the lane over segregation (though not entirely). What you were expecting exactly? Particularly as you've just said you already chose to depart from the forum due to the, er, robust views expressed on it?

If you consider that @The_Seldom_Killer was 'shitting down [your] neck' then I dread to think of the results if you happened to stray into some of the 'Bikes and Bits' threads