If you support segregated cycling infrastructure in Hackney

How can we make drivers behave better?

By saying "You've won!" and getting cyclists off the main carriageway?

The separation will just lead to a greater sense of entitlement (for the motorist) and increase conflict in the millions of miles of UK roads where segregated cycle lanes cannot be added (due to cost and/or lack of space).

The separation will just lead to a greater sense of entitlement (for the motorist)

How do you know that? Did you read any of the research that's been published from other countries that have done this?

@cyclelove good thread I agree about cycle lanes. You only have to visit somewhere with good cycling infrastructure to see what a difference it makes for making cycling inclusive with grannies going to do their shopping and kids going to school.

Cycle training is not any kind of alternative. I'd like to know if the usual line of its safer riding in the centre of the lane is a real evidence based policy or just someone's theory.

I'd like to see more work done in the north of the borough of Hackney, green lanes is pretty horrible to cycle on and it would benice to link Finsbury and Clissold parks for cyclists.

Strict liability and a legal definition of safe overtaking distance that is actually enforced.

They have worked quite well in other countries, even some states in America enforced the latter.

How do you know that?

My ex-girlfriend used to live in Copenhagen so I visit for a week every months for a year (part time enable me this), in the long term I end up buying a bicycle there as it'd make sense to ride around in Copenhagen.

Drivers will honk at you, will shout at you, even attempt to run you over if you don't ride in the cycle path provided (it's illegal to ride on road if there is one), if you try to take the lane, you will be met with death stare from everyone.

You can't simply hop back onto the road, go on the middle to perform a left turn, you'd get pulled over for that, having said that despite it's flaw, thousand of people take to the cycle lane, as oppose to the minority in the UK being forced to due to rising cost of driving/public transport.

Despite contrary, motorists is still No. 1 there.

I actually find UK drivers to be far better at not getting annoyed because you were not on the cycle lane.

^did you not just get punched in the head for taking the lane while riding in London? Like a week ago.....

What you also don't seem to get is that this sort of tedious ego-led infighting in advocacy groups is both a depressingly regular feature, much as with local politics in general, and plays straight into the hands of anti-cycling elements.

This echoes what happen with Southwark Cyclists and the founder of Stop Killing Cyclists, the latter went on his own way because he was extremely angry at the lack of 'segregation' Southwark Cyclists proposed to the grand scheme of thing, attacked anyone who suggest otherwise, and decided the best way to encourage more people to ride is to simply remind them how many people have die attempting their exhilarating journey to the local post office.

^did you not just get punched in the head for taking the lane while riding in London? Like a week ago.....

In Surrey, which is vastly different to London (where a lots of those NIMBY plampf live).

@edscoble Interesting to hear about Copenhagen, I've only visited once! I can see how that might happen, but as you say, I think the downside of being honked at still outweights the upside:

Thousands of people take to the cycle lane, as oppose to the minority in the UK being forced to due to rising cost of driving/public transport.

As for splintering of campaign groups...

This echoes what happen with Southwark Cyclists and the founder of Stop Killing Cyclists

Agreed, and I actually spent some time trying to convince the founder not to run with that campaign.

I'm not trying to fracture the work of LCC, and if you read my blog you'll see that I've been on a lot of their protest rides, and promoted their work as much as I can.

But to give them my full support, I want to know what their local branch is campaigning for. (and I wasn't aware of their agenda until recently hence starting this thread). I don't think this equates to bitching/bickering.

To anyone angered by Copenhagenize's stance (and I agree he can be hard reading) try Chris Boardman's take instead.d.

I think the downside of being honked at still outweights the upside.

I agree, my main point is that Copenhagen isn't the Utopia of cycling as many are led to believe.

Got it. :)

I'm pro segregation. From the start our roads already have massive kerb separated areas for different road users, we call them pavements. Because peds and cars move at different speeds, I don't here anyone arguing peds should reclaim the roads and walk in primary etc...

Cycles/peds/cars are three very different forms of transport, and the Dutch have it right. To demographic of cycling in London is massively skewed to healthy 20-35 males. Even if segregated lanes put off every current user from the roads but induced even a samll part of the latent desire then it would be worth it.

Current modal share is 5% ish, that's nothing much really and rightly or wrongly we don't have any political capital.

That was a ramble, but I'm sure any inaccuracies will be taken up.

It probably is much safer, but it's a damn sight less comfortable and laughable to suggest a group of under 10's should do it as a matter of course.

There's also part of Hackney POB's point that is objecting to a part of a larger org not toeing the line of the mothership.

If LCC and all the other branches have voted to support s4c then shouldn't Hackney LCC have to too? Speaking out in unison, united front and all that.

If LCC and all the other branches have voted to support s4c then shouldn't Hackney LCC have to too?

Yup, this is weird right? I'm going to goto the meeting tonight to see what their take is on it!

Where would this segregation be?

Waltham Forest are doing their mini-Holland thing, but the latest one spits you out onto the Eastway, where Hackney have no intention of doing anything for cyclists on their side of the road.

The demographic of cycling in London is massively skewed to healthy 20-35 males.

Yup. I think this term is fitting — "vehicular cyclists"

Good thread. I'm up for some more infra, as long as it's good infra. Taking my own life (exaggeration I suppose - on no occasion has being hit by a driver actually killed me, yet) in to my own hands just to get to the shops on a bike is a fucking drag and I'm firmly in the demographic that should be able to cope.

"Good infra" with good filtering is the magic combination. Which is why Hackney is complicated, because their filtering has in parts, the parts I've seen, worked quite well. The filtering around Camden south of Kings X is great, absolutely zero through traffic here.

Funny thing is, 1960 were full of vehicular cyclists that Copenhagnize come to hate.

(Dublin).

This is an absolutely lovely picture. If the full segregation was going to look like this, I would happily support it. But lets take a quick look at what the artist hasn't included that we know will happen.

There isn't a young child weaving all over the place having lots of fun while their parent calls out that maybe they want to stay on the left hand side of the bike lane. Or maybe their racing ahead and pulling skids and U-turns without really looking as to who else is about.

There isnt' a large group of cyclists riding along in an ever bulging, slow moving peleton because they really want to ride together. They also isn't a cheery died in the wool socialist who interprets your bell ring or polite request to get past as a reason to tell you that there's no reason to rush because you're on a bicycle and tries to engage you in a long spiel as to why you should join them.

There isn't a cyclist stopped right in the middle of the lane checking their satnav, GPS unit, text messages, setting up an assault on a strava segment.

There isn't a parent riding along slowly as their kids tool along the footpath. They don't want their kids in the cycle lane because lat week someone came blasting past, probably trying to win a srtava segment.

The roots of the plane trees haven't cause the path to bulge up into a rutted uncomfortable ride, even at about 3mph. The council haven't promised to definitely look at the issue as soon as possible but can't prioritise it at the moment because the path is still technically rideable.

The council streetsweepers haven't used the lane as a good place to push all the fallen leaves and the snow so that people can walk along the Embankment safely.

It was sub-zero over night but the spray of the road gritters doesn't reach the cycle lane.
The pavement gritters haven't touched the cycle lane because that's definitely part of the roadway and is the responsibility of the TfL. It's an arterial route you see. TfL haven't gritted it because they're too busy gritting the roads to keep traffic flowing but they reckon they might get to it in time for the commute home. They didn't get to it for the commute home because the Mayor's office ordered them to grit certain non-arterial routes because they're really dangerous. The council still don't think they're responsible for the gritting and haven't got the budget for it. The cycle lane has been a sheet of ice all day that no one can use.

There's no cyclists dismount sign where the lane traverses a road.
There's no cyclists dismount sign because there's an important monument, pop-up exhibition, excavation, flim crew doing a piece about the cycle lanes. There isn't a gaggle of PCSO's who have been ordered down there to make sure there is dismounting because a mate of the local police Borough Commander had a bit of a whinge.

There aren't any pedestrians in the cycle path. They aren't merrily walking along the uni-directional different coloured strip that they've gravitated to.
There aren't any skaters in the cycle path on their way to the Undercroft. There aren't any skaters who have discovered the cycle lane is a great runway up to a fantastic grind.
There isn't a walking tour of London parked up in the cycle lane so as they don't block the pavement.
There isn't a pedestrian rushing across because they've just spotted an available taxi.
There isn't a pedestrian slowly stepping backwards into the lane while they try to photograph every landmark in London all at once.
There isn't a pedestrain who's.... Actually WTF are you doing you massive weapon?

The driver of one of the coaches hasn't started unloading luggage out onto the cycle lane. The passengers from the coach aren't all swarming about the cycle lane looking for their luggage.
There isn't an ambulance at the end of the cycle lane cause all of those parked up coaches obscure the view and a driver in a hurry didn't see, therefore didn't think about the cyclists in the cycle lane. It looked alright because the rest of the road junction was clear. The cyclist didn't see the car nudging just a smidge over the speed limit because their view was obscured by coaches. There isn't an extra coach parked up closer to the junction because they were told they absolutely must drop everyone off here. There isn't a driver standing over an injured cyclist saying "sorry mate, I didn't see you".

The bike racks aren't full up with abandoned bikes. The bike racks hasn't been stripped of bikes by a gang with a transit and a high powered angle grinder.

There isn't a Royal Mail van parked in the cycle lane.

There isn't a police officer, councillor, council officer, PCSO or indeed anyone else there to stop all this inevitable nonsense from happening and help ingrain the function of segregated cycle lanes because they don't have the resources.

There isn't a member of Hackney PoB there watching it all fall to shit and the brief spike in rider numbers fade into the distance because it isn't the utopia that they felt they needed to promise in order to get the project in place. There isn't a tattered spreadsheet of budgetary reallocations that mean the cycle lane won't get maintained properly. There aren't any infrastructure changes on the roadway because the cycling money got spaffed on a white elephant. There aren't the shattered dreams of a cycling heaven because it all got fucked up when this project wasn't done properly and now this, and a lot of other things will never happen again.

There isn't a little crowd of Taxpayers Alliance, Keith Peat and UKIP MPs laughing at the bikewankers who got it all wrong while Petronella Whatsherface from the Daily Mail lauding the demise of the cycle lanes because they caused her grandmother to break her legs several times.

It probably sounds rather negative that. It is, but except the last couple, they've all been based on real occurences. But each one of these things will slowly erode at the desirability of cycle lanes and a lot of "new" cyclists will stop cycling because it just doesn't feel as safe as promised. If you don't address all of these things and make sure that they get future-proofed full-segregation is doomed to a shitty failure. This isn't a build it and they will come type of deal. So go on, how are you going to address all of these problems?

Bloody skaters. They are the worst. Don't even pay road tax, you know?

Thing is, while riding in Holland, you did come across the odd car parked in the cycle track that completely blocked it. But you didn't have to worry, because it was a rare event and the rest of the journey was so hassle free that you didn't mind....

It is a build it and they will come. You can't go from none to lots overnight, and suggesting that steps towards that are pointless and we should just give up is defeatist.

The council streetsweepers haven't used the lane as a good place to push all the fallen leaves and the snow so that people can walk along the Embankment safely.

This is the major beef I had with council.

They build cycle lane, but spend almost next to nothing maintaining it, resulting in lots of cracked tarmac, broken glasses, overground weeds, etc.