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Doesn't Israel have a secret service or SAS-type units?

Easier to do a surgical strike with a knife than a bomb.

Difficult to destroy missile launchers with a knife. Unless it's extremely sharp of course.

Difficult to destroy missile launchers with a knife. Unless it's extremely sharp of course.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNhYJgDdCu4

Difficult to destroy missile launchers with a knife. Unless it's extremely sharp of course.

Terminate the operators, take the launchers home with you?

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism for tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa. While as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

Zuheir Mohsen
Leader of As-Sa'iqa (PLO faction) between 1971 and 1979

I don't really feel there's anything to gain out of arguing whether or not the Palestinian people are an artificial construct, any more than the Swiss or Israelis are - it's indisputable that a large population, extending beyond the borders of West Bank/Gaza strip identify as Palestinian, and desire self-determination.

What's the end goal of that argument anyway? Say you convince people that Palestinians are just a make believe thing (unlike someone's British identity which I suppose you think is more real) - what difference should that make to negotiations?

the man with no name...

An honest Israeli Jew tells the Real Truth about Israel - YouTube

There's no point trying to de-legitimize either peoples' claim to the land, because the fact is that both populations believe it. There's no chance of progress if we're only looking backwards.

This so much. Both sides have done shitty things, and the cycle of revenge isn't going to fix the situation.

They need to accept that both groups live there, and want to remain to live there, and work towards a better future.

So its perfectly fair, and should be understandable to us all why Hamas still uses rockets, as its the Israelis fault. They bring it on themselves, after all.

I'm trying to work out if you are being serious here.

No-one should ever have right to use rockets against another group of people. Whether Hamas, or Israel, or anyone else.

Sure there is intense provocation, but nonetheless using rockets is their choice. Just as it's Israel's choice to kill people, as they are doing, under the justification that Hamas are firing rockets at them.

Both are stupid choices, which extend the cycle of violence.

I'm trying to work out if you are being serious here.

No-one should ever have right to use rockets against another group of people. Whether Hamas, or Israel, or anyone else.

Sure there is intense provocation, but nonetheless using rockets is their choice. Just as it's Israel's choice to kill people, as they are doing, under the justification that Hamas are firing rockets at them.

Both are stupid choices, which extend the cycle of violence.

I believe eyebrows is being completely serious - and I understand where they're coming from. If you've been on the receiving end of a 70 year occupation, tens of thousands of deaths, massive ethnic cleansing and repeated throttling of attempts at resolution, then of course you feel that violence is justified.

However Israelis have been brought up with the holocaust as ever present (see the seriousness of the marking of Yom Ha'Shoah, the holocaust memorial day) and the narrative of all the arab states trying to drive plucky Israel into the sea. If you see the Palestinians as just an extension of an entire region who preaches hate against you, and a people who instead of targeting the military targets will fire missiles at schools, or blow up dinner parties to mark your holiest days, then of course you feel like anything can be justified to stop your children or grandparents being attacked.

but - this is where dialogue is key. If Israelis made the effort to understand and empathize with a downtrodden people who are persecuted by an occupying force, and discriminated against everywhere they've sought asylum/refuge and Palestinians could understand the trauma of a holocaust of which nearly a third of your entire people were wiped out and how Israel is not their colonial project, but a safe haven, then perhaps we could move towards peace. Too much blood has been spilled already. Northern Ireland, South Africa, Poland, India - not that they are situations with exact parallels, but they are examples of how dialogue and non-violent action have created a better situation.

Agreed. I totally understand the motivations.

This is brilliant ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-28478888

http://this-is-not-jewish.tumblr.com/post/34344324495/how-to-criticize-israel-without-being-anti-semitic

I came here to post this. It's worth bearing in mind when discussing the issue with Jews that any perceived tetchiness or defensiveness does not come out of thin air. They have to put up with this kind of ignorant shit, short of full-blown anti-Semitism, but still ignorant, all the time.

It's the equivalent of colleagues constantly making blanket statements about red-light jumping cyclists or attributing blame to cyclists crushed by lorries. Except, you know, there's never been a huge murderous political campaign that nearly succeeded in wiping all cyclists from the face of the earth.

"they"?

Only kidding.

hehe

Reductionist but faintly amusing cartoon
http://youtu.be/-evIyrrjTTY

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/22/the-daily-show-israel-gaza_n_5609815.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

"We need to talk about Israel"

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/jul/26/blind-date-crudgie-jane

I can't be the only person on here who has worked with Crudgie. Strangely the article doesn't mention that he is about 6 foot three, almost never speaks, dresses like a WW1 fighter pilot and is generally terrifying. But I suppose he is different on a date.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/jul/26/day-in-life-boris-bike

He pedals the wrong way up Whitecross Street. Pedestrians jump back on to the kerb. The food market zips past in a blur of pleasant smells. When Kacper must slow down, at a red light he deems unarguable, he pedals backwards. No vehicle is too forbidding to undertake. He nips inside buses, threads between lorries – all habits he picked up here. "For sure not in Warsaw."

I quite enjoyed that.

Also, Alan Waller must be a bit annoyed with the fucking title/headline they gave the piece.

some of the posters in the comments section though >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Allan Waller?

Allan Waller?

Alan Waller, a sustainability analyst, says he is happy to be followed to the gym, provided the bikes are not referred to as "Boris bikes".
(I added a superfluous "l" to his first name).

some of the posters in the comments section though >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

~~Never read the comments.

(I didn't, anyway. Now I'm going back).~~

Ahhh.. Yeah. What a bell-end-helmet.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/jul/26/blind-date-crudgie-jane

I can't be the only person on here who has worked with Crudgie. Strangely the article doesn't mention that he is about 6 foot three, almost never speaks, dresses like a WW1 fighter pilot and is generally terrifying. But I suppose he is different on a date.

I see Crudgie around everywhere