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I was at university with an Israeli chap - nice guy, and forgave us for not being able to pronounce his name.

He'd done military service, which he absolutely had not wanted to do, his father was a heart surgeon in Tel Aviv so he was fairly (whatever the Israeli equivalent is) middle class, well educated etc.

He had no idea how to resolve the situation, which I got the impression was common - but possible the greater issue was that to those who thought they DID know how to resolve the situation the thinking was along the lines of "a good Palestinian is a dead Palestinian".

It's all a shame really. I spent a great summer on a Kibbutz in Northern Israel before travelling around Egypt and Jordan. Very friendly people in that part of the world but the hatred is so ingrained on both sides. What can you do when you are brought up to hate?

It's all a shame really. I spent a great summer on a Kibbutz in Northern Israel before travelling around Egypt and Jordan. Very friendly people in that part of the world but the hatred is so ingrained on both sides. What can you do when you are brought up to hate?

You can learn not to hate. My father's birthplace and upbringing are a direct result of displacement during WW2, and he's as hardine a zionist as they come. Perspective, education, and dialogue have all moved me away from the blinkered perspective I was brought up with.

It's not impossible - it's just difficult, the scars on both sides run deep, and it will take many generations to shift, but it can start in our lifetimes.

You guys really seem to have lost focus on this week's big story: Roger Moore (NB not Sean. Roger) has made no comment regarding the Scottish independence referendum. It was all over the big screen headines in Waterloo station all day on Wednesday. Surprised none of you has picked up in to be honest.

Over the past 70 years, Palestinians have been utterly, utterly demonised,

Palestinians did not even exist until they were "invented". Prior to 1967 they were "Arabs". Genodical Arab nationalism was not born 70 years ago but earlier. Its seeds are within Arab Nationalism that formed the Muslim Brotherhood in the mould of the European fascist movements. It filled the vacuum left by the decline of the Ottoman Empire and the move of the Turks culturally westwards---- dumping even the Arab Script for German. In the 1930s the MB gravitated towards the dream of a Caliphate and in 1936 declared war against secular Muslims and and ALL non-Muslims. Within this war it aligned itself with Germany. In WW-II the MB helped even recruit SS fighters. The start of the demonization, I think, I'd place a bit earlier.. in 1920 with the Nabi Musa Riots. After the riots trust between the Arabs and Jews eroded significantly. The Jaffa Riots of 1921 did not help.. And the Hebron Pogrom of 1929-- the Mulfti (a member of the Brotherhood) called for killing Jews following a dispute over the use of the Kotel (Wailing Wall)-- which ethnically cleansed the city of Jews until after the 6 Day War (at first the British evacuated the Jews "for their safety" and then refused to let them return to their homes. After the 1949 Armistice, Hebron was on the Jordan side so continued to be closed to Jews).

You guys really seem to have lost focus on this week's big story: Roger Moore (NB not Sean. Roger) has made no comment regarding the Scottish independence referendum. It was all over the big screen headines in Waterloo station all day on Wednesday. Surprised none of you has picked up in to be honest.

fuuuuuuuuuck it's true.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/film-legend-sir-roger-moore-3895355

Palestinians did not even exist until they were "invented". Prior to 1967 they were "Arabs".

What? If that's how you begin, it doesn't bode well for the rest.

Palestinians - people from the land of Palestine. Palestine definitely existed before 1967.

Bro, do you even edwardz?

Palestinians did not even exist until they were "invented". Prior to 1967 they were "Arabs". Genodical Arab nationalism was not born 70 years ago but earlier. Its seeds are within Arab Nationalism that formed the Muslim Brotherhood in the mould of the European fascist movements. It filled the vacuum left by the decline of the Ottoman Empire and the move of the Turks culturally westwards---- dumping even the Arab Script for German. In the 1930s the MB gravitated towards the dream of a Caliphate and in 1936 declared war against secular Muslims and and ALL non-Muslims. Within this war it aligned itself with Germany. In WW-II the MB helped even recruit SS fighters. The start of the demonization, I think, I'd place a bit earlier.. in 1920 with the Nabi Musa Riots. After the riots trust between the Arabs and Jews eroded significantly. The Jaffa Riots of 1921 did not help.. And the Hebron Pogrom of 1929-- the Mulfti (a member of the Brotherhood) called for killing Jews following a dispute over the use of the Kotel (Wailing Wall)-- which ethnically cleansed the city of Jews until after the 6 Day War (at first the British evacuated the Jews "for their safety" and then refused to let them return to their homes. After the 1949 Armistice, Hebron was on the Jordan side so continued to be closed to Jews).

This is classic hasbara though - there's no point trying to de-legitimize either peoples' claim to the land, because the fact is that both populations believe it. There's no chance of progress if we're only looking backwards.

palestinians did not even exist until they were "invented". Prior to 1967 they were "arabs". Genodical arab nationalism was not born 70 years ago but earlier. Its seeds are within arab nationalism that formed the muslim brotherhood in the mould of the european fascist movements. It filled the vacuum left by the decline of the ottoman empire and the move of the turks culturally westwards---- dumping even the arab script for german. In the 1930s the mb gravitated towards the dream of a caliphate and in 1936 declared war against secular muslims and and all non-muslims. Within this war it aligned itself with germany. In ww-ii the mb helped even recruit ss fighters. The start of the demonization, i think, i'd place a bit earlier.. In 1920 with the nabi musa riots. After the riots trust between the arabs and jews eroded significantly. The jaffa riots of 1921 did not help.. And the hebron pogrom of 1929-- the mulfti (a member of the brotherhood) called for killing jews following a dispute over the use of the kotel (wailing wall)-- which ethnically cleansed the city of jews until after the 6 day war (at first the british evacuated the jews "for their safety" and then refused to let them return to their homes. After the 1949 armistice, hebron was on the jordan side so continued to be closed to jews).

lozzles!

People are dying every day, but all I can think about now is riots over jaffa cakes. I must be a very bad person.

. Having said that, I'm amazed that anyone in the international community has any time for Israel at all given its past actions.

Does anyone actually know what 'the international community' is?

Guardian does serious piece about Ed's image re-brand, puts this picture in text:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jul/25/ed-miliband-leadership-principle-not-personality

But Milliband made that comparison himself.

I don't read these pieces Will. Pfft.

Channel 4's John Snow summarises the tragedy

Israel has proved one bitter truth. There is no such thing as a forensic or even a surgical attack. In this densely packed slither of land, fenced off from the rest of the world, it has proved impossible to ‘kill a militant’, without taking out a child, twenty children..

That to me is an Israeli government decision/policy. Meaning as a policy they accept, and so should take responsibility for, murdering children.

@Lebowski The actual quote is "Just like Wallace I have been involved in a polyamorous relationship with my dog for a number of years. It's time that hard working families knew the truth about me".
I'm surprised it wasn't the main focus of the article, really.

Channel 4's John Snow summarises the tragedy

That to me is an Israeli government decision/policy. Meaning as a policy they accept, and so should take responsibility for, murdering children.

Doesn't Israel have a secret service or SAS-type units?

Easier to do a surgical strike with a knife than a bomb.

One of the best in the world (according to Spooks), but obviously that risks friendly deaths which bombs don't

Off topic... why are they not calling the Malaysian airliner "thing" a terror attack?

Off topic... why are they not calling the Malaysian airliner "thing" a terror attack?

Maybe it's because it seems more like a horrendous mistake, by a group that thought it was shooting down a military target. I suppose a terrorist attack has to be motivated by a desire to strike fear into a group.

Also, scared of offending Russia by implicating them too much.

What? If that's how you begin, it doesn't bode well for the rest.

Palestinians - people from the land of Palestine. Palestine definitely existed before 1967.

Arabs living in the Palestine Mandate did not see themselves as "Palestinians" but Arabs. In Europe prior to the 20th century the term "Palestinian" was applied to Jews. Kant, for example, refered to Jews as "Die unter uns lebenden Palästiner".

This is classic hasbara though - there's no point trying to de-legitimize either peoples' claim to the land,

I do not consider Arabs living in the Middle East as "de-legitimate". I do, however, strongly reject the genocidal desires of its "main street"-- and yes I have traveled throughout the area including Gaza City and have worked on a number of projects with Arab scientists. The claim that Jews reject and want to displace Arabs is a fear that is implanted from the Arab Nationalists. To quote Benny Morris "“Arab expressions in the early years of the twentieth century of fear of eventual displacement and expulsion by the Zionists were largely propagandistic.” In fact the early Zionists embraced Arab culture as part of its rejection of European culture which it viewed as fundamentally oppressive and anti-Semitic! The mind change, again, Morris is that "since the fin de siècle, Palestine Arabs had been murdering Jews on a regular basis for ethnic or quasinationalist reasons".

Article 24: This Organization does not exercise any territorial sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or in the Himmah Area. Its activities will be on the national popular level in the liberational, organizational, political and financial fields.

Palestine National Charter of 1964

http://this-is-not-jewish.tumblr.com/post/34344324495/how-to-criticize-israel-without-being-anti-semitic